Speaking of belts, I've read recommendations for Norton Blaze as well as 3M Trizact. I have not studied these at all. I have a feeling they are both very good. Kind of like deciding between BMW and Mercedes.
For my WSKO I have some Norton Norax belts. They seem to have the abrasive applied in a helical pattern, which is supposed to make them wear longer and leave a finer finish than the micron rating would suggest. In my experience the x200 (200 micron) performs like Norton says: It leaves about an 80 grit equivalent finish and the belt seems to wear slowly. I think I've done between 150 and 200 blades on that belt and, while it's showing some wear, it's still going strong. But I didn't pick Norax on purpose. It was just what Darex had, so I bought it and liked it.
Any suggestions for belt brand/model and coarseness? I was thinking something like 120, 400, and 1000. Like Grepper, I'm looking to put good edges on knives fairly quickly. I generally find that an edge that's pretty coarse, yet full apexed and fully deburred, makes one of the best utility edges. A few times I have made an edge on the WSKO with a 100 micron belt and then deburred. That edge worked really well for cutting cardboard and lasted a lot longer (on the exact same blade) than an edge taken to 22 or 9 micron.
Maybe I should have something like a 220 or 320. I think that emulates what most knife manufacturers use to sharpen blades.
12-29-2019, 02:44 PM (This post was last modified: 12-29-2019, 10:23 PM by grepper.)
I’ll try to answer, or rather, express my opinion on some of the questions raised here. I’m not saying I’m right, but instead just sharing my own experience. Other folks may do things completely differently. Whatever works best for you is the way to go.
First, about the overheating thing with belt sharpening. This topic has been extensively discussed here and testing was done. In summary, for all intents and practical purposes it’s just not an issue. http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?t...08#pid4008
Is it possible to overheat an edge even with the lower belt speed Kally? Absolutely it is! Just jam the blade hard into the belt and hold it there. Take a bolt and press it hard pinching the belt between the bolt head and the platen. It will get really hot very quickly. Is it possible to burn a piece of wood by jamming it as hard as you can into the blade of a table saw? Sure. Can you remove the skin on your face by jamming the razor against your face really hard and then pulling down? Yikes! It’s creepy to think about doing that.
The point is that any piece of equipment must be used correctly. Used correctly a saw will give a clean cut and a razor provides a clean smooth shave.
On the Kally, I sharpen 1” above the platen on the open belt and use very little pressure. So little pressure in fact that there is virtually no deflection of the belt. Sharpening is not knife making. For me at least sharpening works best with a very light touch.
Heavy pressure creates nasty big burrs and the dreaded pile of metal stuck to the edge dubbed here as Line of Weld (LOW) or what I think some folks call a wire edge. LOW is pesky and sans understanding of what it is, it can be difficult to remove. To remove more metal use a coarser abrasive rather than more pressure. Like I said before, for me at least sharpening is best with a very light touch. http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?t...41#pid4341
For reference, a BESS 1,000 edge is 1 micron wide, so it’s important to keep in mind just how thin a BESS 100 edge is. The edge can be bent with hand pressure by just pressing it against a hard edge. Once the blade is sharp, anything other than light pressure is detrimental.
Mr. Bud said, “… I'd be interested in knowing if the faster belt speed might even be better for burr removal.”
I would think there is no advantage to a faster belt for deburring. Why? Well, from what I have seen burr is comprised of two parts; the base (LOW) that is stuck to the bevel, and flimsy junk on top of it. LOW can be removed by gently pushing against it with the tip of an Exacto blade. No speed there at all. Better yet is a light pass on a Scotch-Brite belt. Scotch-Brite or other conditioning belt of the same ilk almost magically grabs onto the LOW and lifts it from the edge. I was searching for a way to remove LOW and simply, by hand, dragged a blade across a Scotch-Brite lying on the bench. I was amazed how well it worked. That cushioned lumpy, bumpy surface of the belt grabbed on the LOW and lifted it from the bevel.
Once the LOW is lifted from the bevel then the whole burr is just flimsy crap stuck to the edge. I remove it by bending it back and forth using the leather belt. I’ll hold the blade at 45° to the belt and then just tickle the belt with edge to bend the flimsy crap. Then do the same at about 90°, flip the blade over and do the same. Bending the flimsy crap at a sharp angle fractures it off quickly. Then a pass or two at sharpening angle.
Some folks deburr by using finer and finer abrasives. That works, but it is time consuming. Moreover, and most importantly, I prefer a toothy edge and the fine abrasive method of burr removal produces a polished edge.
As soon as the burr touches the belt, it flips over to the other side of the blade. Once it flips over a faster belt accomplishes nothing.
Back to the Kally. Because of the type of knife guide I use, I run the Kally in a vertical position. I can’t see the burr as it forms, but for me it’s a non-issue. I just remove the blade and look at it. That only takes a couple of seconds, but, yeah, I can’t see the burr being created.
The Kally can be operated in any position. I suppose it could be mounted upside down from the ceiling. You know, it’s just a motor, pulley and belt.
Mr. Ken said, “There is a very promising knife jig in development for the Kallie. Perhaps the inventor (Grepper) might give us an update.”
It’s almost done. I’ve just been dragging me feet on the final dregs of boring crap like writing an instruction manual, packaging and other details I totally hate dealing with. Here’s a picture of it.
Mr. blgentry. I hope this helps. Please remember that what I do and the equipment I use is just what works for me. I don’t like recommending equipment because what works for me may not fit your needs and/or methods. I am not recommending the Kally per se. It’s just what I use and what works well for me.
(12-29-2019, 02:26 PM)blgentry Wrote: Speaking of belts, ... Any suggestions for belt brand/model and coarseness?
Nobody else is responding so I guess I’ll chime in. A belt grinder is just a handy machine to have around and useful for tasks other than just sharpening. I use the Kally for lots of different things like grinding the head off a bolt, polishing, surface conditioning, removing rust, thinning a washer, etc. Having a bunch of different belts will always come in handy sooner or later.
Belts are inexpensive so trying several types is easy to do. Folks seem to have favorites and the only way to really know is to check some out and see what you like the best. I have belts ranging from something like 10K to 30 grit and different abrasive types makes and models. At one time or another I have used them all.
Aluminum oxide: Super inexpensive but they don’t last that long.
Silicone Carbide: Cuts really well when new and cuts super hard material. Very friable with a short life.
Specialty belts like Norax, Cubitron and other ceramics: 3x the price of AO, but they do last longer. Personally I prefer ceramics like Cubitron.
Diamond: Really expensive, $150.00/belt. I’ve never played with one.
CBN: Sounds like a good idea but I’ve never been able to find one. There are other reasons why CBN is not appropriate for belts.
FWIW, except for the odd occasion when I want a polished edge, I use only 3 belts for sharpening and deburring; a 150 grit Cubitron for grinding, a blue (I think it’s called extra fine) surface conditioning belt like Scotch-Brite for deburring and a leather belt to clean things up as a final step. This seems to routinely produce clean 100-130 edges.
150 grit is a bit gnarly but there is a reason for that. Final cleanup using the leather belt tends to smooth and round the toothy edge that I enjoy. A 150 grit edge survives touch-up with the leather belt and leaves a wonderful clean toothy edge.
As I have mentioned before, I use very light pressure when grinding. Cubitron is designed to fracture under high pressure and this fracturing of the abrasive particles is claimed to keep it the abrasive particles sharp. That said; with extremely light pressure I’ve found they just stay sharp. When new they are pretty aggressive, but after a short break in they settle down and just last and last. Cubitron 150 grit is my hands down go-to belt for sharpening.
I would suggest paying a dollar or two more per belt and using higher quality belts because they maintain grit level longer. For example, AO belts are great when new but soon the abrasive brakes down and become smoother so it’s hard to know how what to expect as the belt gets used.
Trizact, Norax, Cubitron, etc., and ceramics are all very different in the way they feel when sharpening. They are all good belts and I think it ends up a matter of personal preference. I’d recommend spending $20-$25 bucks and play with different types in the 150 – 180 grit range. Try the major brand names and some general ceramic belts. Don’t just take my word for it or get swamped in all the opinions and Internet hype and blather. The only way to understand is to check them out and see what brings you sharpening joy.
12-30-2019, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 12-30-2019, 11:31 AM by Rick Kr.)
Whatever belt grinder you choose (I have the Viel), if it can be modified to take the Penn State variable speed motor it can easily be made to be reversible and the speed can be reduced to almost nothing. I have done both.
A small toggle switch can be added for reversing the direction. I have posted on this here and on the Viel FaceBook and on the Tormek Community Forum sites.
Also, with the Penn State motor controller, there are small pots inside on the circuit board that can be used to change the speed range. I posted on this on those sites as well. Easy to do and most useful. I've slowed the Viel down to were the motor jumps between stopped and moving, but don't use it there. I am not sure if slowing it down with the Low end pot ("L" in the photo below) has any effect on speed at the high end, but it doesn't matter as whatever grinding I do at higher speeds, the max. speed is more than enough.
Ken and I are riding the same streetcar when it comes to our opinion of Grepper, our own Master of the Kally. We use one of hisprototype knife angle guides for the Kally here and with excellent results. Grepper likes to get from "A" to "B" in an efficient (and toothy) manner while producing very sharp (BESS 100) cutlery edges. If you arrive at the same state of mind as Grepper, Brian, you've found the right man. Thanks for posting your question and thoughts to the BESS Exchange.
Grepper thanks for the extra information on your sharpening technique with the Kalamazoo. For belts, I agree; they are mostly cheap enough to try one of all of the popular types to see what I like. My main issue so far has been finding a supplier with a good variety. So far TruGrit seems to have the biggest range of product in 1x42, but I'll keep looking.
I have not personally tested edges using the BESS system, but reading the chart, it seems like 100 to 150 BESS edges are very, very sharp. My objective tests are mainly:
Arm Hair
Phonebook or Ad Copy paper
Thumbnail
Three finger
All show different things, but of course none of them measure force. Push cutting phonebook against the grain is a very high level of sharpness as far as I'm concerned. I'm guessing 150 BESS is in that range.
That's pretty neat. I had been looking at toggle switches, but had not thought about actually mounting the switch inside the controller like you did. Cool. I had no idea about the adjustment pots inside either. That changes things.
I'm on the fence about whether or not I want variable speed. I'm used to having it, having had the WSKO for several years now and used it a LOT. But do I "need" it? Probably not. Will I get more utility and/or better edges from it? Hmmm.... harder question.
One part of me just wants to order the Kalamazoo and be done with it. I found a pretty decent price from All Industrial Tool Supply. Decisions, decisions...
(12-30-2019, 01:29 PM)blgentry Wrote: ...My main issue so far has been finding a supplier with a good variety. So far TruGrit seems to have the biggest range of product in 1x42, but I'll keep looking.
I've never been able to find a single source for every belt I want. You just have to bite the bullet and pay shipping from several sources. Another good place with a nice variety of belts is:
(12-30-2019, 01:29 PM)blgentry Wrote: I have not personally tested edges using the BESS system, but reading the chart, it seems like 100 to 150 BESS edges are very, very sharp. My objective tests are mainly: Arm Hair, Phonebook or Ad Copy paper, Thumbnail, Three finger
A couple of things here. Brian, PLEASE don't do the creepy three finger test that dude in a bathrobe shows on YouTube. Sliding fingers along the length of a sharp blade can likely result in epidermal leakage. Additionally, the information it provides is basically useless. IMHO, it's a creepy, useless and bad test that makes about as much sense as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvLuDRsEMCY
Cutting paper and arm hair shaving are OK as a quick test to see if you are in the ballpark. Hanging on a thumbnail is not too bad. I actually use it as a quick test. A blade has to be pretty sharp to hang with the slightest of touch to a thumbnail.
The most IMPORTANT info I can pass along is get a BESS tester! PT50B or PT50A. I use the PT50B. You will literally learn more in the first 90 days of using it than with a lifetime of slicing paper or shaving arm hair. It is the ONLY way to really understand your edges, sharpening, improve and understand your technique and what all this stuff means.
If you care about sharpening a BESS tester is an absolute must have. Without it, understanding what you are doing is just a guess and subjective. For years of sharpening I always wondered how sharp my edges were. I searched around and discovered EOU and the BESS tester. Really it's the only game in town.
I had wasted so much money on sharpening equipment I was wary. I didn't want to dump another $150+ into another closet queen. So I hesitated, procrastinated and put off the purchase for more than a year. I scoured the Internet and researched it to death. I called and spoke with Mike at EOU and got all my questions answered. Still I put off the purchase.
Finally I couldn't stand it any more. I bit the bullet, pulled the trigger and purchased the PT50B. On the very first test my forehead got much flatter because I slapped it so hard with the palm of my hand. I immediately wished I had purchased one years before. It literally changes everything. Did I mention it's a must have? I know they are a bit pricey, but just get one. They are wonderful accurate instruments that will teach you more about your edges than anything else. You won't be sorry.
Not only will a tester show things like where there is still burr along the edge or if your technique is producing even edges, but also is the only way to communicate how sharp your edges are with other folks. It is the world wide standard for communicating sharpness. It puts a number on sharpness. Like degrees are to temperature, BESS numbers are to sharpness. Everyone in the world who owns a BESS tester knows and totally understands exactly what a 100 - 130 edge is. It is the defacto world standard for communicating edge sharpness.
Putting a number on sharpness changed everything. It's the difference between saying it's 32°F and sticking your head out the window and saying, yup feels pretty cold. I can say it's a 140 edge, but without a tester folks are left to wonder if it shaves arm hair or how creepy it feels doing the three finger test. Just get an edge tester and never look back.
Got to give credit where credit is due. Mike Brubacher at EOU created BESS only a few years ago, and gave the world a tremendous gift in doing so. Additionally he provided us with affordable, reliable and accurate testing equipment. I think it's an amazing accomplishment to create a world wide standard that changed knife sharpening forever. Thank you Mr. Mike!
(12-30-2019, 01:29 PM)blgentry Wrote: All show different things, but of course none of them measure force. Push cutting phonebook against the grain is a very high level of sharpness as far as I'm concerned. I'm guessing 150 BESS is in that range.
Umm... I happen to know of a way you can quit guessing.
(12-30-2019, 01:32 PM)blgentry Wrote: ...snip...
I'm on the fence about whether or not I want variable speed. I'm used to having it, having had the WSKO for several years now and used it a LOT. But do I "need" it? Probably not. Will I get more utility and/or better edges from it? Hmmm.... harder question.
...snip...
Brian.
I think there is a high likelihood that you will get better edges. I may be in the minority, but I found it very hard to control damaging heat at the edge, but slowing the belt down completely solved that. I feel I have a lot more control of the entire operation at the slower speeds. And I take off less steel in getting an edge ready to be sharpened.
But then, I only do sharpening on a Tormek. I have not yet attempted to sharpen any knives on the Viel, although I have put new edges on garden tools.
Amid all the valuable practical information on this topic, don't overlook Grepper's "Use light pressure" comment.
Extremely low BESS readings get the glamour press. These super fine readings quickly fade, even from exposure to air overnight (slightly). Grepper has pursued the more practical, workaday path of being able to produce very sharp, usable edges simply and reliably. While I appreciate the sub 50 BESS readings, I, like most of us, live in Grepper's world.
