Where do knife steels come from?

[EOU]

Just posted something over in the edge rolling test stand section and it reminded us of a question that our members might be able to expand on. The question has to do with the development of modern steels used in knife making. We've heard that almost no new steels are developed for knives. The steels talked about and used frequently by knife makers and bladesmiths were usually developed for use in other industries. Most notably the tool and die industry. In fact, a very small percentage of these high grade steels are utilized by the knife industry when compared to their original and intended use. High quality steels only find there way to the knife industry when someone in the knife industry "borrows" a newly developed steel because they feel that it might just make a fine knife. The aforementioned is all conjecture as far as we are concerned. Can anyone either elevate or dispute these assertions?

[SteveG]

From everything I’ve read, S30V was the first steel developed specifically for knife-making, and S35VN refined for ease of manufacturing (knives). All other modern knife steels seem to be “borrowed” from some other intended purpose. I’d guess if you look at historical steels, there were probably developments specific to blade weapons, but I’m totally ignorant in that area.

[me2]

There is quite a bit of discussion regarding this topic. Many steels are pressed into service as knives when that's not the original intent. Most of the CPM/powder steels fall into this category, as many were intended as die steels for the plastic industry. Does that mean they don't make good knives? Not necessarily. 52100, 440C, 154CM, BG-42, and many similar steels were intended as bearing steels. I have not used 52100 or BG-42, but the other 2 make decent enough knives, with 154CM being one of my favorites. There is a lot of credit given to certain knife makers for developing steels in concert with steel makers for the cutlery industry. S30V is one of those steels, however, I don't know that I buy S30V was developed specifically for knives. I think you can make a good case those makers tailored their treatment for it to knives and introduced it to the knife world, but the cutlery industry doesn't seem large enough to be able to demand that kind of R&D without other industrial uses.

There are several steels that were made for cutting tools, but not necessarily knives. I tend to look for those as my optimum choice, but not everyone does that, and some are unknown enough that it hampers sales, if that's a goal. But, you have to understand, my opinions are somewhat unusual.

[Mark Reich]

Well, yes, modern American carbon tool steels are probably all borrowed from industry, but other countries have much longer histories of desirable blade metals, that advanced to blade steels. After all, knives and swords were the tools and weapons of choice for approximately thousands of years in most advanced cultures, in my estimation.

I'm not sure how many primary uses for stainless tool steels there are either, so I could imagine most stainless knife steels might have been primarily designed for blades.

Recently there has been a huge boom in powdered steels, and starting with the first, S30V was designed specifically for knives. I'm not aware of other big demands for powdered steel, so I think it's safe to say that a lot of steels are being produced for knives.

Some Scandinavian steels seem purpose driven, as well as mid-eastern and Japanese steels. Those cultures were winning or losing wars based on the steel of their blades.

American tool steels were probably meant to be used for industrial applications, but it turns out those steels make all kinds of good tools, and knives are tools too. It shouldn't be surprising that tough, hard alloys were plenty acceptable for knives, so it makes sense that with all the awesome tool steel available for high performance tasks, folks naturally looked toward industrial steels and found them plenty suitable for knives. Maybe they figured (correctly) that there wasn't any reason to try to design steel specifically for knives, due to the abundance they had to choose from.

Just kinda off the top of my head, I'm not really trying to elevate or dispute anything. I guess I'm just trying to state an explanation as to why things are as they are.  

I never like to see you have a one sided conversation with yourself, Mr. Mike....   

[Edgepal]

There have allways been demands for special sword, knife and axe steels, especially when they was used as weapon. So, they use existing different type of iron/steel and mix them and they make damask steel.
What they got was a flexible hard - and soft steel that hold hard use becose it was both hard and flexible.

I think that damask steel can be called hand made special steel for edged weapons and also knifes - and it was made the first time for about 1500 years ago. Damask steel become very popular in Scandinavia by the vikings and in Japan in their swords.

[EOU]

Thanks for the excellent responses everyone. In consideration of the thread title "Where do knife steels come from?" we're just happy that everyone showed us a little respect and didn't answer "The stork brought them.". Thanks for the thought Mark but I'm very accustomed to one-sided conversations at home. Usually I'm listening though.

We learned something here. Didn't know about SV30 and so glad to find out. It's interesting to think about. At the early stages of civilization, things that cut were vital to survival and the propagation of the species. Stands to reason that many early metal compounds and processes were designed specifically to improve these cutting tools. Today, it seems as if we have attached ourselves to the skirts of industry. That's okay though. Many of the same attributes that make for long lasting injection molds make for excellent cutting edges as well. 

Speaking for me as opposed to "we" I grew up with the repurposing of materials. We all know for what purposes diesel fuel and gasoline were formulated. My dad, E.J., thought they made an excellent charcoal lighter fuel when blended 50/50. He was right. It never failed and as a bonus, imparted a certain "petrochemical" flavor to all our steaks. He endured multiple "one-sided" conversations about that with my mom. That's where I learned that we may have to listen but it doesn't mean we have to change our ways.

[Mark Reich]

I didn't realize that by the time I'd plunked out all those letters, you already had a conversation going, Mike.

I was pretty young when I realized that some people virtually demand one sided conversation, and the best thing to do is visit with the other voices in your head, as they are always much more amenable. Many school teachers seemed equipped with this feature, so I became accustomed to just keeping an eye on them.

I can tell you for sure that Chris Reeve is very widely recognized as the father of S30V, and every company that used S30V (which is virtually all of them) touted it as the first steel developed specifically for knife blades. As far as I know, that was the beginning of powdered steel, and all sorts of powdered knife steels followed.

S30V was supposed to work at HRC 61, but they had to temper it back a couple points, which totally changed it's performance. It took Crucible another 10 years or so to come up with S35VN, which met exactly the performance they were trying to achieve with S30V, which seems to indicate they still have knives in mind.

I also know first hand that Crucible worked with Gayle Bradley when they were developing M4. Gayle was using it to win the big cutting competitions that were so popular at the time. 

It surprises me to hear that any steel is used for dies in the injection molding industry. Cooling, or heat transfer of the dies is critical, which is why all the ones I know about are aluminum. I would think that machinability would be another optimal quality, but the powder steels I know of are exactly opposite.

Don't worry Mr. Me2, I'm used to your unusual opinions, which is definitely Not to say I don't respect your unusual opinions. I certainly don't profess to know about powder steel that isn't used for knives, and I do know that knife steel hardly registers at all in the steel industry. 

It's just surprising to know how many powder steels happen to make up such a high percentage of  high performance knife steels these days, and I really don't know about other uses. I know powder steel is very highly alloyed with strong carbide elements, and awfully expensive to manufacture and pretty involved to heat treat, but like I said, I'm pretty limited to blade steel.

[me2]

It surprises me to hear that any steel is used for dies in the injection molding industry. Cooling, or heat transfer of the dies is critical, which is why all the ones I know about are aluminum. I would think that machinability would be another optimal quality, but the powder steels I know of are exactly opposite.

Don't worry Mr. Me2, I'm used to your unusual opinions, which is definitely Not to say I don't respect your unusual opinions. I certainly don't profess to know about powder steel that isn't used for knives, and I do know that knife steel hardly registers at all in the steel industry. 

It's just surprising to know how many powder steels happen to make up such a high percentage of  high performance knife steels these days, and I really don't know about other uses. I know powder steel is very highly alloyed with strong carbide elements, and awfully expensive to manufacture and pretty involved to heat treat, but like I said, I'm pretty limited to blade steel.

I'm not sure what specific uses they're used for, but some parts of the plastics industry evidently process plastics that are filled with a high volume of abrasive particles mixed in, either as colors (titanium dioxide pigments) or for strength/mechanical properties of the plastics themselves.  These plastics are evidently fairly corrosive in some cases as well.  Both of these, plus the likely use of high pressures for processing, lead to the need for high corrosion and high wear resistance in the extruding dies or molds.  Some of the older high vanadium steels were used as linings for brick extrusion molds or other similar uses.  How much of the overall plastics industry uses these types of steels, I don't know, but it's evidently enough to warrant development of these types of steels.  As you note, I'm sure there are many types of plastics processing that don't require anything near these new steels.

The original powder steels used in knives predate S30V by about 6 years, from a production knife standpoint, further clouded by my memory.  There have been several name changes that make it difficult to follow.  One of the first production knives to use powder steel was the Kershaw Random Task.  It used 440V, which was renamed S60V.  S60V was then phased out of production, despite being a fine high wear steel for knives in my experience.  420V was also used before S30V, but the name was changed to S90V, which is still used now.  I think it's safe to say S30V was the first powder steel to be developed for knives, as the other 2 were not intended for that use.  The small blip that knife steels play on the grand scheme of steel production, and the length of the history of modern steel production, is what leads to my difficulty in accepting S30V as the first overall steel specifically developed for knives. 

One interesting point of view is to look at how many steels are used in knives for hand held use, then look at how many are used in a variety of other tools.  There isn't a great deal of variation in the steels used for large band saw blade bodies, or high impact hammer bits, or hammer heads, etc, though in any case, there are a variety of materials that will do the job.  Which one is chosen is usually the cheapest, unless the chosen material is part of the selling point, in which case more expensive materials are frequently easier to sell.

[EOU]

Please "splain" something to us fellas. So how exactly does this powdered steel work? Is it put into a mold and then heated. Is it heated and then poured into a mold or is there even a mold and/or heat involved in the process?

Next question, is "sintered metal" the same as powdered or is it a whole new animal?

[scott.livesey]

sintered and powdered is the same animal. the big difference is what is produced. sintered typically refers to a part that is made by filling a mold with powdered metal, compressed with high pressure then heated. out pops a gear or brake drum. CPM makes a big round chunk that is then forged and rolled into sheets or bars.
the only "blade steels" i can think of would be AEB-L/12C26 family which was developed for razor blades, cutlery and other cutting tools and the Hitachi color family although Hitachi only makes a small quantity of these steels.
I have heard S30V was developed for blades but also heard the blades they were talking about were the kind that bulls into bologna. I worked for several years making ceramic catalytic converters, main ingredients were titanium dioxide and ammonia, and i guess the extrusion screws and casing could have been CPM.
M4 tool steel has been around since the 1930's as a wear resistant version of M3 and M2, Crucible makes a CPM version and a conventional version.
plastic dies may be aluminum, but will have tool steel inserts where the plastic is extruded and formed.