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Scissor Blades are Single Bevel Too!
#1
Gees. I feel kinda silly for not thinking of this sooner. By far, the most common single bevel edges are... Scissors! Everyone has lots of single bevels right under their noses!

For the stickler, I use the words "scissors" and "shears" interchangeably simply because almost everyone does. Hair cutting scissors are most often erroneously called "hair shears", so that alone totally skews the field. At any rate, I don't mean to make any distinction. I guess "shear" is easier to spell than "scissor", and most people probably think "shear" sounds more professional than "scissor".   

Hair scissors can be very expensive, and sharpeners usually get $20-$30 per scissor, which makes them one of the most lucrative items to sharpen. Hair cutters know absolutely nothing about sharpening, but they sure can tell if their scissors are less than perfectly sharp within about two snips.

Once upon a time, I wanted to be a professional sharpener. Miraculously, I ran into Mr Rupert, the man who would prove to have the greatest influence on all of my sharpening related items of interest. With a lot of Mr Rupert's help and guidance, I traveled thousands of miles to learn to sharpen hair scissors from the likes of Bob Crilly, and learn firsthand from several more successful, dedicated sharpeners. 

It's almost a secret that professional scissor sharpeners never touch the flat side of the scissor. They know how important it is to keep the flat side "factory flat" for the life of the tool. They "deburr" (I would say "distress") on a popsicle stick or whatever. 

Now, case in point. A Master Gardener friend brought her manual hedge trimming shear in for a sharpening yesterday. It was a well used tool, but it had been pretty carefully maintained with a file. It wouldn't cut anything Cleanly though, because the flat was not flat all the way to the edge. 

I made a single, slow pass with a used 60 grit belt to reprofile the bevels. I needed to remove enough of the edge to get rid of the "unflat", which means I needed to grind the bevel back a full 1/16". I ground the bevel edge leading on the vertical platen, with the flat facing me, so I could see when the edge was ground back to the flat plane.

This produced a pretty big burr on the flat side of the blades. If one is very careful about placing the flat on a flat stone, it is possible to remove the burr while maintaining the flat. I used an Atoma 400, so it took less than 10 seconds to deburr both blades. I pronounced them "sharp", stepped out onto the lawn, and tried them on grass. Wow! They cut beautifully, especially for a 90 second sharpening job. I thought I better make the most of it.

Just for fun, I told the Master Gardener that only a master sharpener could make hedge trimmers sharp enough for a haircut, to which she heartily agreed. I got my hank of human hair, and made several snips along the whole length of the blades. I might as well have had a $1000 pair of Japanese hair shears. Honestly. 

I have to admit this was a good showing of a fresh edge, but pretty typical for any single bevel. With decent carbon steel and good stones or plates of medium grit, there is no deburring. That's my definition of efficient. 

Many Japanese blades take it a step further by hollow grinding whenever they can, so keeping a flat side flat is easier.
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#2
Mark,

What an informative and interesting post! The devil in me wanted to say that a pair of scissors might actually have two single bevels, however, I thought that was not polite and would not allow it to be said. Confused

Seriously, you have Started a good topic.

I agree with your comments about Mr. Rupert. He has been an invaluable inspiration and source of experience with my Viel conversion.

Ken
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#3
(10-22-2017, 04:54 PM)Ken S Wrote: Mark,

What an informative and interesting post! The devil in me wanted to say that a pair of scissors might actually have two single bevels, however, I thought that was not polite and would not allow it to be said. Confused

Seriously, you have Started a good topic.

I agree with your comments about Mr. Rupert. He has been an invaluable inspiration and source of experience with my Viel conversion.

Ken

Some scissors have one single bevel scissor and one "anvil scissor"?

Rupert
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#4
Good point, Rupert.

I guess that's why I'm an old chiseler, the one true single bevel tool!

Ken
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#5
(10-22-2017, 05:22 PM)Rupert Lucius Wrote:
(10-22-2017, 04:54 PM)Ken S Wrote: Mark,

What an informative and interesting post! The devil in me wanted to say that a pair of scissors might actually have two single bevels, however, I thought that was not polite and would not allow it to be said. Confused

Seriously, you have Started a good topic.

I agree with your comments about Mr. Rupert. He has been an invaluable inspiration and source of experience with my Viel conversion.

Ken

Some scissors have one single bevel scissor and one "anvil scissor"?

Rupert
The aforesaid are Ginghers.

Another pair Ginghers in hand are with both scissors being anvils.

Rupert
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#6
Mr. Mark, you know how to sharpen convex salon shears?  You know, this kind of stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGMk7qMPeSk

If so, how much practice does it take?  You are not kidding about the (inflated) price they get for hairdresser shears.

https://hikariscissors.com/173.html

"Hair cutters know absolutely nothing about sharpening, but they sure can tell if their scissors are less than perfectly sharp within about two snips."

Here is a post from a guy who goes around to hair salons and sharpens them.  He speaks to how much of his business is due to people dropping their expensive shears.  Yikes! 5arg    A post or two later he follows with a humorous anecdote about a salon experience.  
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?t...43#msg5443

Here he speaks to the differentiation between scissors and shears:
https://www.tormek.com/forum/index.php?t...32#msg5432
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#7
Yes Sir, Mr Grepper, I'm pretty familiar with scissors and shears of all kinds. Haven't met one that didn't come out sharp by anyone's definition. I know exactly what working sharpness is, which is easily attainable by several methods, using different equipment.

It seems like you use scissor and shear interchangeably too. I used to call hair scissors "convex Japanese hair shears" too, because it's common in that sector. I just sharpened a pruning shear that had been convexed just from manual sharpening, so I don't think the Japanese have a corner on anything. Going by the definitive description in your last link, they are not even close to being shears.     

No matter which direction you come from, all you're doing is sharpening a single bevel blade. Or two, if you count as well as Mr Ken. Wink   

If you focus on that, have confidence in your abilities, and simply use common sense, you stand a good chance of being able to sharpen a pair of "convex Japanese hair shears" with a $10 stone.  

Please understand, I really didn't intend to start a thread on scissors. The point is single bevels are easy to sharpen, and if done properly, deburring is super easy to non-existent.
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#8
So, the rocking motion seen in the following video is just because the back of the blade is rounded? Why do people think that is so difficult and hard to learn? I've heard that people practice for weeks to be able to do it. What's the big mystery in sharpening those? Have you seen the price on those flat grinders? $2,775.00. https://www.amazon.com/Wolff-Beauty-Groo...B00IA7790E

It seems that you could sharpen those types of scissors with a slack belt, but it would not be a consistent as using a rotating jig to hold the blade.

Is it really that much of an art to learn to sharpen them?
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#9
Mr Grepper, there are lots of ways to sharpen scissors, but of them all, the ridiculous "flat hones" and their expensive jigs are definitely to be avoided. You're on the right track by ignoring the expensive scissor machines and anything that smells like "convex Japanese hair shears".

You would be Shocked at the wholesale price of hair scissors too. MSRP is about 300% to 500% of wholesale cost, which again feeds the racketeering MO of the hair scissor industry.

If you want a Real, professional disk grinder (stand it on end and it suddenly becomes a "flat hone"), like the 2hp Baldor with VFD and reverse that I use every day, I can tell you exactly how to put one together. It's an indispensable machine in the knife making world, and leagues beyond the little flat hone toys.

I'm sure you've heard of Wolff Industries, and the TAS machine. IMHO, that is a great place to start learning about scissors. They never say anything about "CJHSs". They speak of scissors. You will be blown away by the effectiveness of a TAS, and the support from Wolff Industries.

If you have a Tormek, you really need to call Mr Rupert and talk to him. Hair scissor clamps and jigs are available, and the 2k grit Japanese water stone wheel comes from Japan Woodworker. This is the de facto tool of choice for hair scissors IMHO, but there are a LOT of scissor wreckers that actually use the TAS for "CJHSs", or hair scissors. Almost zero hair cutters would recognize or comprehend the difference between Proper sharpening and good TAS sharpening. In fact, most hair cutters buy their scissors from their sharpener, so the quicker they can grind away a scissor, the sooner they sell another scissor at the aforementioned inflated price.

I'm not kidding when I say the hair scissor industry seems like insest of the highest degree. After all the time and money I spent on tools and learning all the "secrets", I simply didn't have the stomach to pursue working in that realm.
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#10
Mark, you as usual are "spot on" must say again you are spot on.

Another member of this forum has at the least five flat hones and other elaborate methods for sharpening scissors.  Seldom uses any of these.

He uses his TAS (Wolff) Okami Gold system to do high end convexed (Japanese) high end scissors/shears and has a Wolff convexing clamp (MODIFIED) and does beautiful true convexed edges on said scissors.  Yes, he has also up graded his OKAMI GOLD TAS with diamond wheels - there is nothing better - nothing know to me.  It will do better work and more versatile than the Rapid Edge (20,000$) plus.  This TAS has been trained to do the "twist" or torqued edge - Kuda patented their 2000.00$ plus clamp and there was not enough money left over to do business or at the least to make and or supply parts for their clamps - most things wear and or break.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bUrFP7504I

There is another system for less than 1000.00$ that does high end beauty scissors, knives and etc.  variable speed - excellent machine- well designed, thought out and tested and re tested.

Rupert
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