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The Toothy Truthy (one version) ;D
#11
In my understanding steel crystalline structure below deep scratches, caused by using very rough grit, is disrupted to a depth which may be larger than the depth of the surface scratch itself. The existence of such a deep scratches near the cutting edge is limiting its strength.

The principle is following: when the scratch is parallel with a slip band of a surface grain it can cause a tiny step in the metal surface which may serve as a stress riser where fatigue crack can initiate.

   

It is a riddle for me how it is possible that a toothy blade with reduced strength near the edge performs in some aspects better than nicely polished smooth edge.  I would expect that many teeth will be broken off during cutting and initiate nicks on the edge. May be, that even the reduced strength of the edge, is still sufficient for everyday cutting applications.


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#12
The attached figure shows that scratch depth is proportional to scratch width. Measuring the scratch width using a microscope we can roughly estimate the scratch depth.

When the scratch depth is approaching the apex width we have to expect that the strength of the edge will be decreased.

Example: For an edge with 250 gf BESS "C" reading we can assume that the edge apex width is some 0.5 μm. The red line in the attached graph tells us, that a scratch near the edge, which has a width more the 5 μm will decrease the strength of the edge, because the scratch depth is equal to edge apex width 0.5 μm. 

   


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#13
Thank you as always for getting down to the science of it Mr Jan! I love to hear about real metallurgy. I would never have thought about how the steel beneath the scratch is affected, so I have a couple questions.

First, when you say "scratch width is proportional to scratch depth", it makes me wonder about all sorts of things. It can't be the same for different types of abrasive, can it? In the most basic sense, a brand new belt works much differently than one that's even slightly used, so I have to wonder about the qualifications of scratch width being proportional to it's depth. I don't understand why a scratch needs to be about 8x as wide as it is deep.  Huh

From a traditional point of view, you're right, Mr Jan. I've always sort of accepted the theory that the coarser the scratch pattern, the weaker the edge. I'm not sure where that comes from, but it seems to be an accepted theory in general. Personally, I see a lot of wiggle room. What grit? What steel? How hard? What are you cutting? Etc.

I can remember when S30V first came out as the most revolutionary steel to ever hit the cutlery market. The goal was Rockwell 60-61, but at that hardness S30V was too chippy, so they had to back off a couple points. Might not seem like much, but it made a big difference. In particular, the consensus was that if you wanted your new S30V blade to perform, the edge had to be highly refined. 

With S30V at RHC 58-59, it wasn't chippy, but now it wasn't strong enough to hold a keen edge. S30V garnered the reputation as a steel that was tough to sharpen, but it could hold a mediocre edge for a long time. Not exactly the performance they were aiming for, but it kicked off the powdered steel revolution, which is practically ubiquitous today. Now we have S35VN, a third generation powdered steel, which meets all the requirements S30V was supposed to deliver. I dare say it's probably the most popular high performance stainless cutlery steel in America.

What I'm driving at is the fact that the steel we use now probably doesn't behave like the steel in textbooks. Even the former highest performance carbon HSS, M2, is now getting clobbered by the powdered versions, CPM4 (M4) and CPM4V (4V), in the cutlery world.

With the advancements in steel, are we reviewing the aspects of the metallurgy? Are we re-writing textbooks? Mr Jan, is your textbook example applicable to cutlery abraded with very little pressure? It seems pressure must be a pretty big factor when you're talking about affecting the steel below the surface of the scratch.   

Long ago I had some understanding that much of what was being taught in metallurgical classrooms didn't come to bear on cutlery. It seems like the gap can only widen with the advent of completely different, specialized cutlery steel. 

I only have one knife in S30 that sees any use. It's an old Sebenza that I used to keep polished. I've polished about 25% of the blade off, so I have a decade of experience with polished S30V. I've only been using super tooth S30V for six months or so, but the difference is unquestionable IMHO. My disdain for S30 has been eclipsed, because it works fine at 120 grit.

If I do have to sharpen more often, it's way quicker for me to get toothy than polished, but YMMV. 

I know I'm bucking conventional wisdom, and questioning some of the validity of basic metallurgy in regard to cutlery. I do hope you'll forgive me, Mr Jan. I promise I don't want to be argumentative. I always appreciate your educated positions to the matters at hand. 

Indeed, there are still many riddles in relation to sharpening and cutting, which is puzzling. Why is this so ambiguous? Doesn't it seem odd that we can send a probe through 2,700,000,000 miles of -300*F space to study an entire planet in detail, but we can't figure out the best way to cut rope? Astonishing.
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#14
Mr. Mark sayeth, "I've only been using super tooth S30V for six months or so, but the difference is unquestionable IMHO."

Can you elaborate?  Better edge retention?  Less riding on the surface of stuff?  

"Indeed, there are still many riddles in relation to sharpening and cutting, which is puzzling. Why is this so ambiguous? Doesn't it seem odd that we can send a probe through 2,700,000,000 miles of -300*F space to study an entire planet in detail, but we can't figure out the best way to cut rope? Astonishing."
No kidding!  It's a real head scratcher ain't it! Huh

I've wondered the exact same thing. 

Let's see... Fly a rocket to Mars.  Orbit the planet.  Lower a rover on ropes, release the thing and land it by retro rockets.  All by remote control and programming.  Then drive the thing around for years, taking surface samples, analyzing them in on-board labs, all the while sending high res imagery back to earth.  Yet tomes continue to be written on sharpening a simple blade.  Very curious indeed.
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#15
Nice to hear from you again, Mr. Mark. I will now try to answer your specific question about scratch depth and later then respond to the rest of your post.

Mr. Mark, you are correct that there is no need why a scratch should be 8x as wide as it is deep. The graph was used to demonstrate that the scratch depth can be estimated when we measure the scratch width on the surface and to show that the scratch depth is often significantly smaller than scratch width.

Optical scratch testers are modern instruments for imaging scratched surfaces and for measuring of surface mechanical properties. Normal scratching includes deformation such as ploughing, but might also involve material cracking and removal.

See the attachment. (https://www.rtec-instruments.com/indenta...tester.htm)

Jan

       


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#16
Mr. Mark, in my understanding it is a large difference between textbooks for formal metallurgical education and books for metal workers who are often interested only in some specific topics, e.g. forging or heat treating of steel.

The general textbooks have a longer lifetime because they describe metal related general physical and chemical principles, which are more or less mature.

The other category of books, which are for me rather engineering handbooks, require more frequent updates or reworking.

My strength is in the general material background while my weakness is practical knowledge of heat treating processes available to steel and also knowledge of steel alloying.

Enthusiasm makes it possible to overcome many gaps in education or knowledge, but there is a risk that our reasoning may stand on feet of clay.

"All theory, dear friend, is gray, but the golden tree of life springs ever green." (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)

Jan


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#17
Thank you Mr. Jan. Smile 

I realize cutlery is a very small part of metallurgy, which usually makes it difficult to compare apples to apples. It's good to understand the differences between regular metallurgy and blade metallurgy too.  

Mr Grepper, besides my S30 test blade, I also sharpened an S30 blade for a friend. Formerly, the coarsest grit I used on S30 was 1k, and it seemed to work better than the usual 2K-4K edge.

Now I'm hooked on the 140 Atoma edge. I deburr with featherweight edge leading passes, so there's absolutely no refinement going on. This edge passes the smoothness test with flying colors, and our S30 blades have never performed remotely like they do now.

If you would have asked what the Atoma did Not work on, I would have guessed that S30 wouldn't be strong enough.

I'm very surprised that S30 seems to hold a toothy edge considerably longer than a refined edge. I think the pundits are just flat wrong, but there are many more of them than there are of us. I'll be shaking out toothy S30 edges through hunting season before I'll be willing to pass judgement.

ps- I have noticed something about the 140 Atoma edge. It's practically impossible to scratch yourself. If the blade touches skin, you may feel it, or not. A cut doesn't hurt, but I've never seen them bleed so profusely. It's a different game.
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#18
"I'm very surprised that S30 seems to hold a toothy edge considerably longer than a refined edge."

Cool, eh?

"I think the pundits are just flat wrong, but there are many more of them than there are of us."



I agree, and there is no doubt this seems to be bucking the long standing and still prevailing preference and reasoning for smooth edges.  Another advantage to toothy edges is that it's just quicker and less hassle to do.  Grind it, deburr it, done.  I am looking FW to your post hunting season findings.

"A cut doesn't hurt, but I've never seen them bleed so profusely. It's a different game."

I just hate it when that epidermal leakage happens.  Uh-oh!  Woah  Hmmm... Looks like I'm leaking somewhere! 5arg
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#19
Mr. Mark, how do you go about deburring with the 140 Atoma?  Do you do it at the same angle the knife was sharpened at?  Into/away from the edge?  Perpendicular to the edge? That kind of stuff. I know you have mentioned an extremely, "feather" light touch.
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#20
I still make a burr and flip it at moderate pressure, which takes about 15-20 seconds for a touch up. After that I just cut the burr off with edge leading strokes at lightest pressure. I feel after each pass so I can feel the burr fade, then it's gone. I don't normally go back to the other side of the knife.

Now I have a sharp blade with traces of burr. I like to use the hard, round plastic of a sharpie to remove the last traces of wire edge. I turn the sharpie as I draw the blade across, which keeps the removed burr away from the rest of the edge.  

When I'm in the shop, I go through a Lot of 1/2" braided hemp rope. It can tell you a lot about your edges. See how many cuts you can make. That's a great scientific measurement when you get used to it. IMHO, the edge needs to cut some stuff before I'm sure it's going to cut stuff.
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