Titanium and the dreaded BESS Contest

[TZ750G]

My friends:  I was a bit of a knifemaker in the early 1970's, quitting in 1975 - or so it is stamped on my last blade.  I could make a pretty knife, but not a sharp one.  The whole theory was lost on me.

I moved (this was before the word "transitioned" was invented) to racing motorcycles.  My mis-spent youth was consumed with this pointless exercise, but somehow I made it profitable, and now, in retirement, my time can be partly spent back with my old love - knives.

Through the miracle of the internet and the questionable gift of YouTube, many questions have popped up into my feeble brain.  While worrying over whether my knives were "sharp enough," I stumbled onto the little - and reasonably priced EDGE on UP PT50A BESS tester that I bought through Sharpeningsupplies.com

I have never made a better knifemaking investment !

It is possible, that the continued proliferation of BESS - testing contests will draw me back into the field - since there is a STANDARD way to inexpensively measure sharpness at EVERY stage of the building, sharpening and competing regimen.

While spending too much on sharpening supplies - and we all know how much fun that it - it teases me to find that I really know NOTHING of the theory of choosing a "steel" and a "grind" with the goal of matching that seductive YouTube poster that showed - pretty convincingly to me - that he had somehow produced a near-perfect edge on his little "PT50A" that measured below 10Gg ! ......................

Help me and others by discussing which knife steel alloy would be
best for a winning blade, and at what thickness near the edge. 

Also what included angle I might be looking for on that "Killer Edge."

As the title infers, titanium and it's effect on hardness
( along with it's carbides) draws my attention.

SPYDERCO offers little - but sometimes not cheap - sources
of blades to practice sharpening with.  Although $200 per
practice blade make my arm hair stand up,
if METAMAX @ 70HRC is a winner, than
the cost doesn't seem so bad.

Your thoughts ?

[grepper]

Wow… You bring up a bunch of different subjects in one post.

FWIW, I’ll babble my thoughts on sharpness and steel varieties.  I’m sure some folks opinion will differ from mine, so like I say FWIW.  I look at knives as tools.  Tools to use in everyday life.  Chasing super sharp is fun and interesting to do.  Nothing wrong with having fun!  That said, IMHO, it does not buy much for every day use knives.  So, it’s two different things… Every day use and having fun seeing just how sharp you can make a blade.

From what I have seen, super sharp edges are a real pleasure to use, but that level of sharpness is ephemeral at best.  Chopping a few carrots reduces those edges to 100-150 very quickly and then dulls from there.  After all, super sharp means super thin and super thin edges tend to roll and dull quickly.  Of course there are situations where the sharpness will endure such as slicing sashimi with no cutting board impact, but in most general use circumstances the extra effort to get super sharp is not worth the effort as it does not last long.

I used to think that super hard steel would, of course, provide more enduring sharpness.  However, that does not appear to have panned out.  The harder steels seem to dull at about the same rate as “softer” RHC 56-58 steels.  When it comes to general use blades the big manufacturers like Henckels, etc., have figured out the best hardness steel of somewhere around HRC 56-58 or maybe just a bit harder.  They have been at it for 100 years so it kind of makes sense they have figured something out.  The issue is that the expensive super steel blades don’t offer a good ROI.  Additionally the harder steels tend to be not only harder to sharpen but also suffer from chipping and edge longevity is not greatly improved.  

My theory of this phenomenon is that super sharp edges are so thin that the slightly harder steel can’t compensate for tendency for the edge to roll and dull.  It’s the bulldozer and the egg thing…  If a bulldozer is lowered onto an egg, it will crush the egg and make an ugly disgusting mess.  Even though a dozen eggs would be 12X stronger and support 12x more weight it’s not enough to make a difference.  The same with harder steel blades.  It’s not harder enough to resist rolling and dulling during every day use of a blade, let alone the other disadvantages of expense of hard steel blades that suffer chipping.  

Regardless of the steel, cutting board impact, etc., dulls blades pretty quickly.  It’s a fun experiment:  With a “normal” blade like a Wusthof, sharpen it until its nice and sharp, measure the sharpness, chop a dozen carrots and then measure the sharpness again.  Then do the same with an expensive super hard blade.  Please let us know the results!

From my experience thinner blades get sharper than thicker blades.  I generally sharpen to 15 degrees per side.  But then like I mentioned, I sharpen blades to use and not just to see how sharp I can get them.  I’d be interested to hear if you find the same with thinner/thicker blades.

Check out the RHC calculator: http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=287

I usually get practice blades at the local Salvation Army store for a couple of bucks each.

[TZ750G]

Wow… You bring up a bunch of different subjects in one post.

FWIW, I’ll babble my thoughts on sharpness and steel varieties.  I’m sure some folks opinion will differ from mine, so like I say FWIW.  I look at knives as tools.  Tools to use in everyday life.  Chasing super sharp is fun and interesting to do.  Nothing wrong with having fun!  That said, IMHO, it does not buy much for every day use knives.  So, it’s two different things… Every day use and having fun seeing just how sharp you can make a blade.


I usually get practice blades at the local Salvation Army store for a couple of bucks each.

Thanks for quickly chiming in GREPPER,
and offering some thoughtful advice.

I also look at knives as tools. 

They can be tools to enjoy a good steak,
cut up the potatoes, butcher the cow,
shape the wooden platter
to cut the steak on,and to cut
sheet metal to make the forks.

As I say in another thread, I am having difficulty
finding an empirical way to measure "toothy,"
which is another way of characterizing a "serrated knife," 
which has some similarity to a hack saw or a crosscut saw.

My deep background is in tool use, and I have a number of tools,
mostly for metal. Some of these tool I keep because they are antiques,
and I like what they represent.  Some are beautiful, and there is pleasure
in just looking at them.  Some just feel good in the hand.  Most are just tools.

My current concern is with a specialized tool:
an ordinary - looking knife edge that can
demonstrate the LOWEST BESS
score ever authenticated.

It it turns out to be a
"single use" item,I'm
good with that.

[grepper]

If you try to get the lowest BESS, please post your results and methods.  Should be interesting.

Of course you can measure a toothy edge sharpness, but I sure don't know how to measure the "toothy-ness".   It can be seen under the microscope.  I sharpened to different levels of toothy.  Here's what they looked like under the scope:

   

Brian Gentry did some newspaper tests that are quite informative showing how toothy breaks through slippery or fibrous surfaces compared to a polished edge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZk-e3yUOZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vP2Wgindu8

[TZ750G]

If you try to get the lowest BESS,
please post your results and methods. 
Should be interesting.

Thanks for the suggestions, Mr. G.

I have sharpened almost two dozen knives
since my last post; My results did vary.........

Most successful were these:
(Results on PT50A BESS "C")

Spyderco #2 with Maxamet blade ............................. 34g
Spyderco "Ladybug" with ZDP-198 blade ....................36g
Shun Debba Pro 6.5 with VG10 blade .........................38g
SHUN Kaji paring knife with SG-2 steel ......................38g

I seem to be stuck in the mid-30's ..........

[grepper]

Those are some very impressive numbers Mr. TZ.! Are you using test clips or an ATF?

What is your sharpening procedure/method/equipment?

[TZ750G]

Those are some very impressive numbers Mr. TZ.!  Are you using test clips or an ATF?

What is your sharpening procedure/method/equipment?

I'm using stones and strops, no power equipment.

No jigs or fixtures - just hand-held.

NOT using the clips .....

[grepper]

You certainly have mastered hand sharpening. Those are extremely sharp edges. Well done! Apparently you don't need jigs, fixtures or power equipment.

[TZ750G]

You certainly have mastered hand sharpening.
Those are extremely sharp edges.  Well done!  

Apparently you don't need jigs,
fixtures or power equipment.

Thank you, Mr G, I am actually quite proud !

I can't always get into the mid-30's. but I think that's a worthy goal.

This morning, I wanted to try something in steel S30V, and I had a used Buck "BOS" 860 "neck whistle" in the garage.  I didn't spend much time, but when finishing up on a Cow Leather strop with DMT spray 0.5 micron diamond, I found a pretty good edge at 56g.

BUCK “BOS” 860 USA in S30V ……………......………...56g

BUCK 110. (3-dot) USA 440C …………847/329/184/52g


I had an ancient Buck 110 in the tool box, with three "dots: and no particular heritage other than abuse - as most of those old Bucks were.

AWFUL edge !

After rather blindly setting a bevel by eye and hand, I was able to bring the old girl down to a 329g, which would be pretty serviceable. 

With a careful progression after that - and ten times more work, the Buck 110  was down to 52g.

I speculate that both of these knives can be made sharper on the BESS scale with more work.  BUT, as we know, those last 20-30g "reductions" will take more time than everything else put together.

[grepper]

From 847 to 52 on the old Buck eh? Extremely impressive Mr. TZ, especially considering you are sharpening freehand! Very few members here post those low numbers regardless of the sharpening method. Thanks for sharing!