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Surface finishing belts and deburring
#1
The first time I had ever heard of using a surface finishing belt (Scotch-Brite) in connection with sharpening or deburring was on this forum.  Because of the unique surface of these belts, it kind of sat in the back of my mind as something interesting, especially in connection with deburring.
 
The reason I thought it might work for deburring is the odd, almost sponge like and sort of forgiving surface.  My reasoning was that this unique surface may grab at the burr and therefore aid in removing it.
 
Looking at the surface with a 10 X loupe, it looks sort of like a sponge.  I took this image with a digital camera:
 
   
 
I decided to take a little closer look-see at these wonderful belts, and I was surprised to behold an almost alien brain synapse like structure.  How’d they ever come up with that I thought!  Once you see what’s really going on, it’s much easier to understand how they can create a beautiful satin finish on metal surfaces.
 
The surface appears to be comprised of some sort of fiber, or possible wire, with globs of colored adhesive embedded with abrasive particles.  Methinks it’s pretty cool.

   
 
But, if you recall, my original purpose for checking this out was to find out if surface finishing belts can be used for deburring.  To this end I did the following:
 
I sharpened a blade and did a good job of removing the burr so I was starting with a clean edge.  The black line on the right of these images is a marker line for reference.  Two sharpness tests with the PT50B approximately 10 mm from the line were 130 gf and 125 gf. 
 
   
 
Then I did three passes on one side of the blade and then three passes on the other side of the blade with an extra fine blue Scotch-Brite belt.  Like any other abrasive belt, this raised a burr.  With the burr, two sharpness readings were 435 gf and 575 gf.  Here is an image of the blade with the burr created by the Scotch-Brite belt.  The burr is clearly evident.
 
   
 
Then I deburred the blade.  Two sharpness tests after deburring were 150 gf and 140 gf.  Here is an image of the blade.  Apparently I failed to completely remove the burr as there appears to be a small amount of burr remaining which probably accounts for the slightly higher sharpness reading compared to the blade when I started.
 
   
 
Then it struck me that the burr created by the Scotch-Brite belt in this test was very similar to the burr pictured in my previous post ( http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?t...72#pid1172 ) after using the Scotch-Brite belt.  They appear very similar in both structure and size.  Just guessing, but I think there is a possibility that the burr from the previous post  was actually created by the Scotch-Brite belt when I attempted to use it for deburring.  Here is a comparison of the two.
 
   
 
I was really hoping that a surface finishing belt might be the magic sauce for burr removal, but at this point I’m skeptical.  I’ll leave it up to you to decide.
 
As always, this was just one test.  It is neither extensive nor conclusive.  Nonetheless, that is what happened and what I observed.  I guess it's another take from it what you will kind of thing. Smile
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#2
As always, I appreciate your test and writings.

Have you tested one of the finer belts in the Scotch Brite family - the Blue is about 150+ grit (fine)?

The latest addition/edition is to 3M SB family is called "talc" and it is very very fine and a different structure. Like short rabbit hair?

https://trugrit.com/index.php?main_page=...e385c85f56

The Shadow is confused in ref to SB ratings

Front Color
Blue, Brown, Gray, Maroon
Grade
CRS, MED, SFN, VFN

https://www.knifemaking.com/category-s/847.htm I, am confused please call Jantz and ask about what color matches what appx grits? This is Eclipse Day - that may be my problem not my age?

This is what the talc belt looks like on a wheel http://www.trick-tools.com/2_x_48_Polish...2SBP_S_520

Our Moderator Mark had or has a 1x42 talc

Fellow member Don B had or has a 1x42 talc

If they are not using or testing their belts they may share? Who knows? Only The Shadow knows.

More in ref to Scotch Brite Belts

I, am more confused: depends on what grit and or something? The Shadow say he does not know!

http://www.silversmithing.com/1abrasives.htm

Scroll down to the second chart Scotch Brite Abrasive Belt Equivalent Grits

This chart appears to be more in line with my thoughts -

Trick Tools

rates the brown SB belt as coarse
rates the blue SB belt as fine

in reference to what?
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#3
That's very interesting Mr. Rupert!  Thanks.

I too am confused by the 3M coarseness ratings.  It seems to be different on different sites.  I remember when I got the Scotch-Brite's I used the grit chart from where ever it was that I purchased them from and used a marker to write it on the back of the belts. Why couldn't 3M have done that?  The belt I used was blue.  Blue?  That tells me nothing.  Thanks 3M!  I had marked the back of the belt "VF" for Very Fine.  Come on 3M... give us a consistent grit rating across all your belt line.

I'm guessing that the belts you are using are the same blue VF belts I used for the test?  The talc belts don't seem to have mysterious color coding.  

Right now I don't even know exactly what talc is.  Is there talc in talcum power?  Is it the same stuff they sprinkle on baby's butts to keep them dry and comfy in their diapers?

I'll have to check it out, find out more about it and possibly give one a test for deburring.

If you or anyone else here for that matter have done any real testing using clean 3M talc belts for deburring, please post!
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#4
I have never tested 3M talc belts. It was for me quite surprising for me to read that talc is a mild abrasive. From the everyday experience I know talc as baby powder or also talc tailor’s chalk.

Talc similar to graphite is known to me as lubricant. It has a mineral hardness of 1 on the Moh's scale (1 to 10), aluminium oxide is 9 and diamond 10. Fingernail hardness is circa 2.5!

   

For me talc is rather a polishing agent.

Jan


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#5
I agree Mr. Jan.  Hard to consider talc as an abrasive.  Maybe in this case, for deburring, a not abrasive abrasive is good!  Now I'm more interested in the surface of the belt than the talc part.  Talc on a belt almost seems irrelevant as far as abrasiveness goes. Maybe it's more of a lubricant in this application?

I was just about to post the following when I saw your post:

Yes!  Talc is what is in talcum powder.  The Tur-Grit site says, “A non-woven belt used for cleaning, finishing, blending and deburring applications. The firm, stretch-resistant backing is suited for high belt tensions. Abrasive mineral: Talc
 
Odd talc is considered an abrasive, “Talc is known for being the softest mineral on earth.”  The site also says talc can be in a variety of colors.  I’m surprised 3M didn’t glom onto that and use it to describe abrasiveness. 
http://www.minerals.net/mineral/talc.aspx
 
Can someone here who has one take a close up picture of the surface?
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#6
Rupert, has a 1x42" and several 1x30"'s here at his desk - maybe my Son will come by later this week and that will be our project.

As I hold one in my hand it feels that it needs some compound - as Jan said the talc may be a lubricant?

I, am not a camera man with today's offerings.

My thoughts on this Eclipse Day is that 3M is trying to re badge to 'Polishing Belt".

It has a place in our quiver's - for what I do not know - maybe additional clutter?

If the SHADOW comes by today I will ask him.

EOU knows the Shadow and also for sure our Moderator will be able to help with this talc issue. Mr. Moderator must be recovering from his success at Buffalo Chip 2017?

Think I mentioned rabbit hair in a earlier post should have been PC and written rabbit fur.

The texture of the belt makes me remember my teen years in the 40's buffing out the final, final color buff on black lacquered Packard's and GM products using corn starch - hot and humid here in Louisiana. Fords used a crappy enamel and there was not much we could do but wait for the enamel to cure (days) and then wet sand an spray again and hope - had no spray booths and or heat lamps.

I, love these times have nothing in the past to recover - to be youthful again and have the knowledge acquired along life's train ride would be great.

This may be the reason 3M is leaving the word talc OUT!

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-johnso...SKCN1B121D
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#7
One of the possible explanations is this: different talc grades may contain significant amount of other minerals, e.g. magnesite, dolomite or quartz, which are more abrasive then pure talc.

Enjoy The Great American Eclipse today!

Jan


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#8
(08-21-2017, 12:48 PM)Jan Wrote: One of the possible explanations is this: different talc grades may contain significant amount of other minerals, e.g. magnesite, dolomite or quartz, which are more abrasive then pure talc.

Jan
Jan, if there is a pure white color or colored belt the talc belt is it - 

Rupert
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#9
A great wishful utterance there Mr. Rupert, “to be youthful again and have the knowledge acquired along life's train ride would be great.”
 
Mr. Jan, here in Michigan the eclipse was about 80%.  It got a little dark, sort of like when a cloud passes over, and that was it.  Why don’t people make a big deal out of the phases of the moon?  That’s a great way to see an eclipse every month and you don’t even need special glasses!
 
Back on subject, I’m guessing that the talc belt won’t have enough surface rigidity to be effective at deburring.   It’s probably a good substrate for holding abrasive compound, but on it’s own it’s just for soft polishing.  I have not seen one, so it’s just a guess.
 
Like I’ve mentioned before, deburring a smooth edge is easy and quick.  Deburring a toothy edge without smoothing it is far more difficult.  It is the latter that I’m currently trying to find a good solution for.

Oh, BTW, who is this "Shadow" of whom you speak?
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#10
(08-21-2017, 01:37 PM)grepper Wrote: A great wishful utterance there Mr. Rupert, “to be youthful again and have the knowledge acquired along life's train ride would be great.”
 
Mr. Jan, here in Michigan the eclipse was about 80%.  It got a little dark, sort of like when a cloud passes over, and that was it.  Why don’t people make a big deal out of the phases of the moon?  That’s a great way to see an eclipse every month and you don’t even need special glasses!
 
Back on subject, I’m guessing that the talc belt won’t have enough surface rigidity to be effective at deburring.   It’s probably a good substrate for holding abrasive compound, but on it’s own it’s just for soft polishing.  I have not seen one, so it’s just a guess.
 
Like I’ve mentioned before, deburring a smooth edge is easy and quick.  Deburring a toothy edge without smoothing it is far more difficult.  It is the latter that I’m currently trying to find a good solution for.

Oh, BTW, who is this "Shadow" of whom you speak?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow
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