Forging / smithing

[wadebevan]

Mark, and anyone who coerces hot metal into shape,
I am trying to get my wish list together for my next phase of bladesmithing.

Could you recommend minimums on good tooling to get forging?  (overkill is good too)  

Anvils, size, weight, type
Hammers
Tongs
Ovens
Fuel types for those ovens
Gloves/safety equipment
All of the things I am not aware of

Any advice would be great!
(Well, not great for my wallet, but we ignore that as much as possible)

T.W.

[Mark Reich]

I don't know how seriously you want to take this, Wade. I was interested enough to know that I wanted to make incredible knives for a living, so I had no qualms about investing heavily. Most middle age people would rather have an interesting hobby, so they go about things at that level.

It doesn't matter what I want to do, I just want to be the best in the least amount of time. I don't know how else to do that without learning first hand, from the best teacher. I would never have time to try to study through every aspect on my own. There's always more to learn than you can possibly imagine, and great plenty of details that you will have to work out for yourself.

There are some obvious things you need, but you're already learning how difficult it can be to choose the right equipment. A guy might think that a big belt grinder should be easy enough to come by, but the more you learn about them the more difficult it becomes, eh? 

You know you'll need a forge and an anvil. Those are more straightforward than grinders, but I know neither are easy to acquire. 

I know I can walk you through making a nice forge on whatever scale you'd like. I'll take some pictures of my first forge to give you an idea of what I consider minimal. You should study Rex Price's website here, and Ron Reil's website here. That's all you'll need to know about forges.

I invested $2k in my anvil, while I'm sure I could have welded up some RR track for free. I know I made the right decision for me, but YMMV. It would be worth checking Craig's List. You could get lucky.

Take a hammer with you. Good anvils have rebound and ring. They cost more, but as long as you're kind to it, it won't depreciate.

[wadebevan]

Mark,
As always, thanks for the pro-info.
I went through the two sites you linked, and wow... a lot of information.

As far as the anvil, what would you consider the more relevant aspects: weight, working surface area, horn/no horn, holes (pritchel, hardie), mounting style?
Surely the material that it is made from - is at the top of the list.

Having never shaped much out of hot steel, I am just wanting to get it as close to right as I can the first time.

I would be willing to drop $500 (or less) on a good anvil, as I can see its value.
But, I have no idea what would be the best shape/style or minimum weight.

As far as the forge, the links you gave, plus some googling of the subject has me thinking I should build my own first version.
I really like the hybrid burners design, and will probably go that direction.

My goals are pretty simple, learn more by doing, and avoid a second mortgage

Thanks again,
TW.

[Mark Reich]

Probably my greatest motivation to invest so much in an anvil came from trying to find a good one that wasn't beat up. I just didn't have time to find a used one like I wanted, and a used one wasn't that much cheaper.

I know that I primarily wanted a forged anvil, and there just aren't many. I'm not even sure they're still making them, as I'm pretty sure Peddinghaus was the last manufacturer. I don't know how many hundreds of years old they were when I bought mine, but the Peddinghaus brand anvil has been bought out twice since then.

As far as weight goes, 75lbs is bare minimum. 125lbs is common. 125 kilos (275lbs) is, surprisingly, not too much.

[Jan]

Mr. Wabe, form physical point of view the anvil should be as massive as is practical, because the higher mass of the anvil, the more energy is transferred to the work piece. Anvil inertia is proportional to anvil mass. A cast iron anvil base increases anvil weight and inertia.

There are endless discussions among blacksmiths concerning the hammer-anvil efficiency measures. The hammer-anvil mass ratio is the critical parameter. Realistic blacksmithing process is between ideal elastic rebounding and fully non elastic sticking on impact.
 
The quality of steel or cast iron used to made the anvil is very important, because low quality material deforms when struck and less energy is transferred to the work piece.
 
Traditionally the anvil was based on oak log buried several feet into the floor. Nowadays anvil base is often made from steel drum full of sand. You can easily imagine what placement offers better coupling.
 
My tuppence on the subject.

Jan

P.S.: In Greek mythology, Hephaestus (Vulcan) the son of Zeus and Hera, was god of blacksmiths.
His symbols were a smith's hammer, anvil, and a pair of tongs.

       

[Mark Reich]

What I know about anvils is pretty limited, but I don't think a cast anvil holds a candle to a forged anvil. People are getting ripped off a bunch lately with cast copies of Peddinghaus anvils.

It's not easy to find forged anvils, but when you drop a hammer on one, you would know it for sure.

[Jan]

Yes, Mr. Mark, you are correct!

Good hammer and steel ball rebound are necessary anvil face properties.
Anvil ringing is also very important. Cracked pot sound indicates structural defects. On the other hand very loud anvil response is annoying.

[Mark Reich]

My anvil rings Way too loudly! I have a big ol' log chain wrapped around it, and I still use earplugs. Or more likely, ear buds, so I can listen to music.

I find myself pounding in time with the music often.  

Good thing I'm far enough away from the neighbors...

[Jan]

I find myself pounding in time with the music often.  

One Australian knife sharpener was considering to use metronome for pacing sharpening. His issue was middle overgrinding problem caused by spending too much time in the middle part of the blade.  

 
Just out of curiosity, Mr. Mark, what is the mass of your anvil and what is the mass of your favourite hammer?
 
I just thought that it would be a nice homework for your future metallurgy students to describe the physics of anvils. It seems that already Isaack Newton was involved in resolving the riddle of hammer and anvil. Many studies quote his term coefficient of restitution in which he embodied the hammer speed before and after the impact.  

[Mark Reich]

I have a Peddinghaus #12 anvil with an upsetting block. They weigh 125 kg. I can rock it around on its rectangular, wooden base pretty easily.

I've used the next smaller Peddinghaus anvil, a #9, at 75 kg, and there's a significant difference. It worked well with a 2lb hammer, but we were making smaller, thinner knives.

My favorite forging hammers are 3 to 4lbs, which seem perfect for my anvil, but that's just my own experience.

I can't remember how much the bigger Peddinghaus cost, but it was crazy. Around 500lbs as I remember. I've only seen one, and I compared it to the anvil I bought, with the 4lb hammer I bought at the same time. I felt the #12 was big enough.