more toothy thoughts

[Jeremy]

Yes, Max and I live about 4 hours apart. He told me about this knife test when we spoke on the phone regarding the Penn motor.
From what I've gathered from you guys and my own experience the toothy theory is finally making sense.
Of the 300+ knives I sharpened so far this week only a few exceeded 400 grit. It obviously takes less time to sharpen, but I'm struggling to find an effective way to remove the burr in less time when finishing at this level.
I use to think the factory edge even on some of the higher end kitchen knives were just a *quick factory edge*. No, they had it right all along!

[grepper]

Wow Mr. Jeremy! 300+ knives in a week!  You guys have sharpened far more blades that I ever have or probably ever will.  That is a lot of experience.  Very impressive. I respect that a lot.  There is nothing like experience to really know what you are talking about from a practical, real-world perspective.

If you wouldn't mind, what method do you use for burr removal?  What works/does not work best for you?

How in the world do you get that many knives to sharpen?

[Jeremy]

Thanks for the kind words grepper! Sometimes it's a lot less than that in a week, other times a lot more. My business is still pretty young so the experience level is still quite low. I'm always learning something new and things like the *toothy edge* chatter has felt like atoms being split in my head.

I can't realy say for sure what hasn't worked for me, though if you wanna hear about TIN engine in a Sprinter I'll tell you all about it!!! Sorry.

I've been using a Viel and its knife guide edge leading into the belt against the platen. "Loose machining" & less expensive steel require some modifications to use the guide and I'll share that some other time. I've tried and continue to expiriment with other belts, but have been using a combination of worn/fresh and some coated with rouge- r203 120 grit zirc and a45, a16, a6, and using a big leather strop on wood with pink rouge if there is still any sign of an existing bur. In recent months I've been skipping a few grits while chasing the toothy edge dream and equally as much a bur! Gone from dragging it through wood, a pass on the leather tormek wheel, back to wood, pant leg, Palm, anything in sight that looks like it wants to help! I won't know for sure until I pony up and get a bess machine to test, but so far looking at the edge in a high powered loupe and some trusting feed back, one or two passes edge leading from an a6 (straight from 120) seems to clean the bur up pretty nice leaving just a few stragglers hanging about to get whisked quickly away in one or two hand strops. Oh, and very bright LEDs mounted in my van not only helps seeing a lot while sharpening it also makes even the smallest bur visible.

Being mobile has definitely made it easier for me to sharpen a lot in a day, but in the early days I wouldn't make enough to pay for gas, or a sandwich. Then the door to door started becoming "wait, are you that guy....?" Word of mouth, making some time to shoot the bull and chat with folks, mixed with a little bit of quality sharpening I guess is my best answer.

[Ken S]

Interesting thoughts, Jeremy. Thanks for posting.
Ken

[grepper]

Mr. Jeremy - Yeah, that toothy edge... Unless there is some specific reason for a polished edge, I'll always make a nice, toothy edge. I've experimented with a toothy edge quite a bit now and for me at least it's the way go. Hands down. Bob's your uncle. It took me a long time to understand that, but now that I know, for me it's way to go.

A perfectly smooth, extremely sharp edge will melt through tomato skin. Works great. The only problem it is very ephemeral. VERY quickly it folds and starts riding on the skin. I'll never go back to a polished, smooth edge.

Every have an blade catch the belt when sharpening into belt rotation?

[Rupert Lucius]

Over thirty years of sharpening on belts I have never had a belt catch and or etc sharpening into the edge.

Masters like Mr. Jerry Hossom have warned me.

Only had one belt to separate at the glue joint - for a moment my heart stopped.  Replaced the belt and continued the sharpening session.

For some unknown reason I tell sharpeners that it is a no no (sharpening into the edge with a belt).

My opinion less burr to deal with. A better sight angle viewing the edge being sharpened.

Rupert

[grepper]

Well Mr. Rupert, 30 years experience is difficult to argue with.    I agree with less burr into the edge.

I caught the tip of a blade on a leather belt on my Kally while flipping the knife over to do the other side.  It resulted in copious epidermal leakage and a significant laceration.  Of course I was not stropping into the belt, but just caught the tip.  It yanked the blade from my hand and made it do flips in the air on the way to the floor.

I caught an edge sharpening into a 10" Tormek wheel @ 100 RPM.  It grabbed that blade and flipped it out of my hand so quickly I hardly knew what happened.  Really freaked me out.   I got lucky that time- no leakage or damage done.

I've popped a belt too.  BAM!  Wakes you right up!

If you do ever catch an edge on a belt grinder whatever is going to happen is instantaneous.  All there would be to do would be to check if your heart is still beating and if there is any damage.  I wouldn't recommend it either, but I understand why you would do it.

[Jeremy]

I've cut two belts edge leading getting in a hurry. Indeed, happens in a NY second!

Today I set up at my local farmers market for the first time in seven months. I could tell by the knives that still had a polished bevel that I had sharpened them once before. When a guy handed me a Benchmade I said "this isn't the factory edge is it?", he replied no that I had sharpened it before. I asked if he wanted that same polished bevel or something a bit more toothy that would hold its edge better. Every knife I sharpen today was roughly 400 with a pass or two on an a6 trizact and if a bur still existed a light pass or two on the leather tormek wheel.

Thanks guys!

[grepper]

I’ve started to think that even 400 grit is pretty smooth. Currently I’ve been doing 150 – 180 grit and am pleased with the results.

At 400 grit there is not much “toothyness” to start with so I would wonder if the A6 Trizact (2500 grit) could be smoothing the edge as well as removing bur? I’ve found a leather belt on the Kally with a little bit of Tormek compound (1-3 micron grit) seems to work quite well, and since it is leather and such a fine abrasive it does as little harm to the nice, toothy edge as possible while still removing burr. You can see the results in that thread about the Lasting Cut chef’s knife.

Jeremy said, “…until I pony up and get a bess machine to test”. It took me a year before I pulled the trigger on the PT50B. It ended up being one of the best purchases for really learning about sharpening I could have made. Now I couldn’t do with out it. Wish I had bought it years ago. With the PT50B coupled with a microscope I learned more in 6 months than I had in years. A great combination of instruments.

It will be interesting if you hear from your customers how they like the more toothy edge. If you get any feedback let us know!

[Rupert Lucius]

Grepper

Try a 120 belt, to create the bevel(s) that you desire.

Go to a Scotch Brite belt (blue or finer).  To refine the edge.

Now go to this wheel - there are others - this one works for me:  https://www.woodcraft.com/products/buffing-wheel-8-x-1.

One very light pass on each bevel (cutting edge) at between 1700/3600 RPMs.

I, am at that time handing the knife to the customer with one hand and reaching for monies with the other hand.  A perfect product within about a minute or less.

Keeping it simple (KISS) I learned from a husband and wife team who sharpened at the BASS Pro in Springfield, Mo. full time seven days a week for many years.

Husband was taken out by cancer.  Ms. Georgia continued sharpening  with the help of her daughter, Ms. Georgia has recently retired after many many years as a sharpener at BASS Pro.  Never changing her system.

All done on one Baldor 1/4 HP Buffer @ 3600RPMs.  Using paper wheels - one wheel gritted with 180 or 220 grit.  The other wheel with white compound.   Loaded the gritted wheels at home and brought several to work every day.

Another Baldor stayed tucked away under the counter with a Scotch Brite wheel (maroon) to clean when required, a dirty dirty  blade.

For time off she had several relief sharpeners trained - I, asked her how she compensated them - she told me that they received every penny they produced.  Therefore there was no theft and or discussions about proceeds.  A beautiful lady.

Also paid in full the hospital and medical bills for her husband and educate her children, son and daughter all with the above system.

Rupert