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+--- Thread: The straight razor that can't cut test media (/showthread.php?tid=475)
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Mark Reich - 09-03-2019
I've been using the carbon steel razor I spoke of on June 20th. I think I only used the Double Duck one time, and used the carbon blade another 3 or 4 times since then, including yesterday.
The Only maintenance on this razor has been stropping on my palm about 10 times yesterday. I thought it was tugging slightly after the first cheek, but certainly seemed better after palm swiping. I shaved after a normal 5 minute shower without any soap or anything on my face. Still worked fine IMHO. Wasn't unpleasant in any meaningful way. Remember, this blade totally failed on media, but has cut a lot of whiskers.
What I find acceptable is a razor that gives me a pretty smooth shave in one pass. There are usually a few normal places I have to touch up, but that's probably to be expected for everyone. My razor expert friend, Tom Blodget of Jenda Industries, always shaves twice, I believe. Once down, re-lather, second pass up. His standards are Way beyond mine. His face is literally perfect after a shave (yes, I felt it), but it takes him a long time. Pretty sure he has a bunch of Youtube videos. He'll shave his entire head with a kitchen knife too, even with a ceramic kitchen knife he sharpened. He is truly a Master Honer!
At any rate, I think a straight razor is a lot more like a regular disposable blade than guys probably think. I mean I can shave four times in two months without doing Anything to the razor. I don't know anyone who neglects their straight razor on purpose, just to see what happens, or minimizes their daily "shaving experience". I also don't know many people who could care less about shaving than I do. Especially among straight razor users.
I shave with a straight razor for one reason. It does not matter how long your beard is. Makes no difference to your razor, which makes a huge difference when your beard is heavy every time.
I guess I'll just keep posting my experience in hope of feedback...
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - EOU - 09-03-2019
No one here has the courage to shave with a straight razor Mark but that won't stop us from replying. Sounds as if your straight razor must be in the sharpness neighborhood of DE blades so please "splain" something to us if you can. You said:
" Remember, this blade totally failed on media, but has cut a lot of whiskers."
We have no doubt that you are successfully shaving with your straight edge. People successfully shave with razors that use DE and disposable blades as well. The major difference here, edge sharpness testing wise, seems to be that DE blades, as well as those extracted from disposable razors, don't suffer dented edges during the testing process and some sharpened straight edges do suffer dented edges. But of course, we've made that point before. Lot's of people swoon over the smooth and effortless shave delivered by Feather DE blades (24 - 28 BESS) and we know the edge doesn't dent on these blades because, clearly, you couldn't get BESS 24 -28 consistently if it did - you'd get 124 or 324 if it dented.
So the question then is this; what are your thoughts on what's behind this seeming incongruity? Intuitively, it would seem that an edge with greater structural integrity might have advantages over a less strong edge. It's possible though that when slicing soap bubbles floating in the air or facial hair softened by hot water, that there is no advantage. In any case - what do you think is going on here?
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Mark Reich - 09-04-2019
Thanks for playing along, and good question, Mike. Off the top of my head, seems like it must be the steel. Blades that aren't meant to be sharpened could be quite a bit harder. Toward that end, how much money would razor blade companies spend, figuring out exactly what alloy and heat treat to use? I think they tailored Sandvik 13C26 steel to do some incredible things with... frapillions of dollars in metallurgy bills.
I don't have any idea about the Rockwell of disposable blades. Tell ya what though. I'll trade Rockwell machines with you and do all your testing for you for free. For life even. Mine still works perfectly well as a great conversation piece. It also touts a smaller footprint and it's much easier to maneuver as a paperweight. I can have tracking info for you before lunchtime.
I've heard it explained that the "thinness" of the straight razor blade is a key point. Something like, "If you start off with a piece of .003" thick steel, it's easy to make it thinner". Well, that kinda makes sense. Especially if the objective is cutting hair. Make the edge stable enough for that, and that alone (not something .008" thick with something RHC 55 at the center), and see what happens. Turns out that actually seems to work pretty well, and has for a really long time.
I'm not kidding when I say I literally splash some water on my face and fricken Shave. It doesn't make enough difference to me to go through the trouble of using soap. It just doesn't hurt. Not during or after a shave. When it starts tugging it gets annoying. I have used rubbing alcohol after shaving because that's supposed to illuminate your experience. I think I remember it burning more back when this was all new to me, and my razors were really sharp, and I tried to get a really close shave. Maybe I have more cave... person in me. Cavemen shaved with rocks. To this day women just rip that shit out by the roots. Never hear them crying.
So here's a question for you, my friend. Why are DE razor blades now measuring twice as sharp as they used to? I'm pretty sure I saw with my own eyeballs that a DE blade started out at 50, and left in still air overnight got significantly duller. I'm thinking about 20% duller. Now DE blades are measuring 50% Sharper through Use? Wasn't this a lot more logical 5 years ago? We might have shat bricks if shaving sharpened blades back then.
I remember saying that the carbon straight razor might have been a little sharper after use, but for one thing, carbon steel is different. Besides that I had some misgivings about those results. I wasn't expecting edge failure, and I'm looking for something sharpenable that won't do that.
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - EOU - 09-04-2019
Well thank you Mark. We wish you did have our Rockwell Hardness Tester . You would surely make better use of it than we do.
We had to look into the material razor blades are made of after you mentioned it in your post. To our surprise we found this reference on the Continental Steel and Tubing web site:
440 Stainless Steel
"Often referred to as “razor-blade steel” due to its frequent use in the manufacture of razors and cutlery, grade 440 stainless steel provides high strength and moderate corrosion resistance. Extremely versatile, it’s used in a wide range of industries to create specialized, small-scale products and is available in various types: 440A, 440B, 440C, and 440F."
So not terribly mysterious or exotic stuff. This one, at least, sounds more exotic though:
"Razor blade strip steel in Sandvik 13C26 martensitic stainless chromium steel delivered as cold-rolled strip steel with close dimensional tolerances and high accuracy on flatness and straightness.Combined with excellent metallurgical properties, Sandvik razor blade steel contributes to efficient razor blade production and high-quality razor blades."
Don't know what to tell you about your report on DE razor blades. We still have an inventory here of thousands of DE blades that span the offerings of dozens of manufacturers and our test results are the same as they were six years ago. Our six year old inventory might be key here though - Our Feathers, even six years ago, measured, 25 - 28 and still do. Perhaps other manufacturers of DE blades have begun chasing the Feather standard and have begun producing sharper blades. It's been five or six years since we purchased a DE blade so perhaps we should shake loose with some shekels and see whats going on. Or...we could just turn to a guy who has spent years sharpness testing every DE blade imaginable under very controlled circumstances - Chase Anderson at www.refinedshave.com.
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Jan - 09-05-2019
IMHO continuous steel development may also result in some microstructure changes which may positively influence the quality of the razor blade edge. E.g. the size and amount of carbides is important. The same is true for the heat treatment.
Jan
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Mark Reich - 09-07-2019
The Refined Shave site is awesome! I just scanned it quickly. A whole bunch of blades have been tested for initial sharpness, first shave and second shave, then provided the average. Most of the blades seem to be in the 45-50 range to me. Most of the blades did test sharper after the first shave, then back to about the starting point after the second shave. The Feather was sharpest at 32, I think, but it was uniquely duller after use.
Wow! Mr. Anderson did a TON of research! Thanks for the link, Mike. I'll definitely have to spend some time looking at all the data. I did see that the sharpest blade does not mean the best shave, and that is in line with my experience with straight razors. XXXtrey-sharp is slower with a straight (I haven't used a DE) because you have to be more careful IMHO. Could be just me. Not an XXXpert.
This thread has made me shave more. I shaved today after I gave my razor an actual freshening up of about ten laps on 1µ poly diamond, and the same on .5µ CBN (I just found a balsa hone loaded with it). I do have my hones handy, in a desk drawer. About 30 seconds from getting them out to putting them back.
5 minute lukewarm shower (as always), toweled my hair, my face was still wet, that's it. Maybe 1.5 minutes, face and sink clean (I'll time it next time). Plenty close (wifely verification), very comfortable. The razor was perfectly sharp for me. I'm betting I'll get two more shaves without doing anything to it, and the third will be borderline.
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Mike Brubacher - 09-09-2019
Yep Mark. Chase has put in a lot of work and provided a valuable service with his site. He's pulled back the curtain on a lot of conjecture and speculation.
I'll let him know that you appreciated his site.
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Mark Reich - 09-12-2019
Thank YOU Mike, that's cool and kind of you.
This thread has almost turned me into a regular shaver, like about once a week. My beard just doesn't grow very fast, and it's not dark. I just noticed it was long enough for a test shave this morning, and I did time it.
Everything as usual. Toweled off, pulled my hair back, grabbed the razor. No maintenance. Not even stropping on my hand, since I just honed it last time.
No soap or anything, razor in hand, started the stopwatch. I don't hurry. I usually get a nick when I do, and that can be a pain in the butt. Not that a nick hurts at all, epidermal leakage is just a mistake.
Stopwatch said it takes me about 59.51 seconds to shave. I probably should have hit the lap button instead of stopping the clock. I guess rinsing, touch up in the normal places, drying my face and the sink takes probably takes another minute. I don't have aftershave, and I didn't test it with rubbing alcohol, but it felt normal.
Seems like this inexpensive carbon steel razor works pretty well. Looking for input, what can anyone tell me?
I'm Not Racing. I'm just telling my story. Please don't make me go to a shaving forum...
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Mike Brubacher - 09-12-2019
Don't go to the razor forums Mark! They'll slice you up for chum! Wish I could add more but I don't know more. I think the important question is this: Have the mosquitoes stopped flying in the Black Hills yet? Read this (mostly lifted from the pages of Wikipedia) and beware of the straight razor!
Lord Carnarvon was an enthusiastic amateur egyptologist, and Lord and Lady Carnarvon often spent their winters in Egypt, where they bought antiquities for their collection in England. In 1907 Lord Carnarvon undertook to sponsor the excavation of nobles' tombs in Deir el-Bahri, near Thebes. He employed Howard Carter to undertake the work. On 4 November 1922, Carter was able to send a telegram to Lord Carnarvon, in England, saying: "At last we have made wonderful discovery in Valley; a magnificent tomb with seals intact; re-covered same for your arrival; congratulations". Of course this tomb turned out to be that of Tutankhamen. Carnavon flew to Cairo to be present for the opening of the tomb. In early March 1923 the tomb was opened.
On 19 March 1923, Carnarvon suffered a severe mosquito bite which became infected by a razor cut. On 5 April, he died in the Continental-Savoy Hotel in Cairo. He was the first to fall prey to the "Curse of Tutankhamun".
RE: The straight razor that can't cut test media - Mark Reich - 09-13-2019
I've got to hand it to you, Mike. That was interesting and close enough to on topic.
I don't know of many places where mosquitoes aren't bothersome. They're still awake here, but it's still mostly in the 50s for lows.
That's an outstanding story for sure. Not sure whether a disposable could have saved him. If I ever need to believe in a curse, that's the one I'll go with.