(10-01-2018, 10:34 PM)grepper Wrote: Mr. Jason uttered, "it is micro-beveling for micro-burr removal is used, then the knife is sharpened at the original angle again to remove the micro-bevel."

So, when the knife is sharpened again at the original angle, does that not create a burr that must be removed?

(10-02-2018, 10:40 AM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 02:18 AM)Jan Wrote:

(10-01-2018, 09:02 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-01-2018, 06:48 AM)Jan Wrote: For me the term "burr-free sharpening" is a little bit misleading especially in discussion how it differs from "burr based sharpening". In my thinking more suitable term would be "burr minimization sharpening approach".
 
In my understanding burr is formed as a result of plastic flow after each cutting operation, regardless if edge-leading or edge-trailing technique was used.
 
In machining the burr formed during edge-leading cutting direction is called entrance burr while the burr formed during edge-trailing is called exit burr. Exit burr height is usually greater than the entrance burr.
 
Jan

Jan,
You are correct.  I think the term burr-free is used instead is because a burr is not purposely formed, or the goal of sharpening, and it's need for burr removal.  In the case a burr is formed, a micro-bevel is used to remove it, and since that is one of the normal final steps of burr-free sharpening (in the Cliff Stamp method), it isn't necessarily thought of as a separate step. Although for maximum edge sharpness, it is micro-beveling for micro-burr removal is used, then the knife is sharpened at the original angle again to remove the micro-bevel.

Jasonstone, thanks for your explanation!

My understanding how the burr is formed is shown in the attached sketch.

One might think that changing the direction of sharpening from edge-trailing to edge-leading will fully eliminate the burr, but strictly speaking it is not the case, because both burs were formed in a slightly different way. (I consider guided sharpening where the bevel angles are exactly the same for both sharpening directions. Results of free-hand sharpening, where the bevel angles are not exactly the same, may be different.)


 
Jan

In my interpretation of what Cliff is saying, *optimal* sharpening stops the moment the edge is apexed, thus not allowing for burr formation.  I can't argue whether this is true or not, though I can say that I've tried it - unsuccessfully.  Cliff's argument for edge-leading vs edge-trailing is that edge-leading moves damaged metal away from the apex, instead of into it.  His arguments seem to me to be more from the standpoint of edge-retention than achievable sharpness, and from optimal rather than practical sharpening, though his methods seem to work for him - wished they worked like that for me.

(10-02-2018, 02:18 AM)Jan Wrote:

(10-01-2018, 09:02 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-01-2018, 06:48 AM)Jan Wrote: For me the term "burr-free sharpening" is a little bit misleading especially in discussion how it differs from "burr based sharpening". In my thinking more suitable term would be "burr minimization sharpening approach".
 
In my understanding burr is formed as a result of plastic flow after each cutting operation, regardless if edge-leading or edge-trailing technique was used.
 
In machining the burr formed during edge-leading cutting direction is called entrance burr while the burr formed during edge-trailing is called exit burr. Exit burr height is usually greater than the entrance burr.
 
Jan

Jan,
You are correct.  I think the term burr-free is used instead is because a burr is not purposely formed, or the goal of sharpening, and it's need for burr removal.  In the case a burr is formed, a micro-bevel is used to remove it, and since that is one of the normal final steps of burr-free sharpening (in the Cliff Stamp method), it isn't necessarily thought of as a separate step. Although for maximum edge sharpness, it is micro-beveling for micro-burr removal is used, then the knife is sharpened at the original angle again to remove the micro-bevel.

Jasonstone, thanks for your explanation!

My understanding how the burr is formed is shown in the attached sketch.

One might think that changing the direction of sharpening from edge-trailing to edge-leading will fully eliminate the burr, but strictly speaking it is not the case, because both burs were formed in a slightly different way. (I consider guided sharpening where the bevel angles are exactly the same for both sharpening directions. Results of free-hand sharpening, where the bevel angles are not exactly the same, may be different.)


 
Jan

(10-02-2018, 12:11 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 10:40 AM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 02:18 AM)Jan Wrote:

(10-01-2018, 09:02 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-01-2018, 06:48 AM)Jan Wrote: For me the term "burr-free sharpening" is a little bit misleading especially in discussion how it differs from "burr based sharpening". In my thinking more suitable term would be "burr minimization sharpening approach".
 
In my understanding burr is formed as a result of plastic flow after each cutting operation, regardless if edge-leading or edge-trailing technique was used.
 
In machining the burr formed during edge-leading cutting direction is called entrance burr while the burr formed during edge-trailing is called exit burr. Exit burr height is usually greater than the entrance burr.
 
Jan

Jan,
You are correct.  I think the term burr-free is used instead is because a burr is not purposely formed, or the goal of sharpening, and it's need for burr removal.  In the case a burr is formed, a micro-bevel is used to remove it, and since that is one of the normal final steps of burr-free sharpening (in the Cliff Stamp method), it isn't necessarily thought of as a separate step. Although for maximum edge sharpness, it is micro-beveling for micro-burr removal is used, then the knife is sharpened at the original angle again to remove the micro-bevel.

Jasonstone, thanks for your explanation!

My understanding how the burr is formed is shown in the attached sketch.

One might think that changing the direction of sharpening from edge-trailing to edge-leading will fully eliminate the burr, but strictly speaking it is not the case, because both burs were formed in a slightly different way. (I consider guided sharpening where the bevel angles are exactly the same for both sharpening directions. Results of free-hand sharpening, where the bevel angles are not exactly the same, may be different.)


 
Jan

In my interpretation of what Cliff is saying, *optimal* sharpening stops the moment the edge is apexed, thus not allowing for burr formation.  I can't argue whether this is true or not, though I can say that I've tried it - unsuccessfully.  Cliff's argument for edge-leading vs edge-trailing is that edge-leading moves damaged metal away from the apex, instead of into it.  His arguments seem to me to be more from the standpoint of edge-retention than achievable sharpness, and from optimal rather than practical sharpening, though his methods seem to work for him - wished they worked like that for me.

SteveG,
That is an excellent explanation.  Could you tell me how Cliff's technique didn't work for you?  This is what I am trying to figure out.  Thank you.

(10-02-2018, 01:27 PM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 12:11 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 10:40 AM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 02:18 AM)Jan Wrote:

(10-01-2018, 09:02 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote: Jan,
You are correct.  I think the term burr-free is used instead is because a burr is not purposely formed, or the goal of sharpening, and it's need for burr removal.  In the case a burr is formed, a micro-bevel is used to remove it, and since that is one of the normal final steps of burr-free sharpening (in the Cliff Stamp method), it isn't necessarily thought of as a separate step. Although for maximum edge sharpness, it is micro-beveling for micro-burr removal is used, then the knife is sharpened at the original angle again to remove the micro-bevel.

Jasonstone, thanks for your explanation!

My understanding how the burr is formed is shown in the attached sketch.

One might think that changing the direction of sharpening from edge-trailing to edge-leading will fully eliminate the burr, but strictly speaking it is not the case, because both burs were formed in a slightly different way. (I consider guided sharpening where the bevel angles are exactly the same for both sharpening directions. Results of free-hand sharpening, where the bevel angles are not exactly the same, may be different.)


 
Jan

In my interpretation of what Cliff is saying, *optimal* sharpening stops the moment the edge is apexed, thus not allowing for burr formation.  I can't argue whether this is true or not, though I can say that I've tried it - unsuccessfully.  Cliff's argument for edge-leading vs edge-trailing is that edge-leading moves damaged metal away from the apex, instead of into it.  His arguments seem to me to be more from the standpoint of edge-retention than achievable sharpness, and from optimal rather than practical sharpening, though his methods seem to work for him - wished they worked like that for me.

SteveG,
That is an excellent explanation.  Could you tell me how Cliff's technique didn't work for you?  This is what I am trying to figure out.  Thank you.

The shaping step seems to be ok for me, so I get to the point where there's no visible light reflected from the edge, and I'm going to apply one or two high-angle passes to micro-bevel and form the apex.  First pass, still dull.  Next pass, still dull.  Keeps on going "still dull" until I can feel a burr - IOW, I'm either not going far enough, or too far, at which point I'm back to the strop just as I would have been if I did my more normal burr-based sharpening, but now that I have a microbevel the stropping is a little harder to get right.

Keep in mind that I don't have much experience at freehand sharpening, and it's likely my high-angle passes are too inconsistent to use this method well, so you'll probably have better results than I get.  Also note that I didn't/don't include back-bevelling (the step where, after adding the microbevel, you resharpen at the original angle to remove the microbevel) in the progression - I might be missing the point, but don't see that it adds any value and just gives me more opportunity to ruin the edge.

So, with all of that said, I can get to slicing phone book paper with the grain, and sometimes across the grain, with this method, but not push-cutting across the grain, which is kinda my threshold for sharp.

(10-02-2018, 04:28 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 01:27 PM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 12:11 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 10:40 AM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 02:18 AM)Jan Wrote: Jasonstone, thanks for your explanation!

My understanding how the burr is formed is shown in the attached sketch.

One might think that changing the direction of sharpening from edge-trailing to edge-leading will fully eliminate the burr, but strictly speaking it is not the case, because both burs were formed in a slightly different way. (I consider guided sharpening where the bevel angles are exactly the same for both sharpening directions. Results of free-hand sharpening, where the bevel angles are not exactly the same, may be different.)


 
Jan

In my interpretation of what Cliff is saying, *optimal* sharpening stops the moment the edge is apexed, thus not allowing for burr formation.  I can't argue whether this is true or not, though I can say that I've tried it - unsuccessfully.  Cliff's argument for edge-leading vs edge-trailing is that edge-leading moves damaged metal away from the apex, instead of into it.  His arguments seem to me to be more from the standpoint of edge-retention than achievable sharpness, and from optimal rather than practical sharpening, though his methods seem to work for him - wished they worked like that for me.

SteveG,
That is an excellent explanation.  Could you tell me how Cliff's technique didn't work for you?  This is what I am trying to figure out.  Thank you.

The shaping step seems to be ok for me, so I get to the point where there's no visible light reflected from the edge, and I'm going to apply one or two high-angle passes to micro-bevel and form the apex.  First pass, still dull.  Next pass, still dull.  Keeps on going "still dull" until I can feel a burr - IOW, I'm either not going far enough, or too far, at which point I'm back to the strop just as I would have been if I did my more normal burr-based sharpening, but now that I have a microbevel the stropping is a little harder to get right.

Keep in mind that I don't have much experience at freehand sharpening, and it's likely my high-angle passes are too inconsistent to use this method well, so you'll probably have better results than I get.  Also note that I didn't/don't include back-bevelling (the step where, after adding the microbevel, you resharpen at the original angle to remove the microbevel) in the progression - I might be missing the point, but don't see that it adds any value and just gives me more opportunity to ruin the edge.

So, with all of that said, I can get to slicing phone book paper with the grain, and sometimes across the grain, with this method, but not push-cutting across the grain, which is kinda my threshold for sharp.

SteveG,
I had the same issue when first trying to use it.  I was able to communicate with Cliff and he walked me through the last part.  What I did after that was just take one knife and sharpened it for a week until I got the technique down.  In Cliff's video and forum post, he didn't explain that he had sharpened the knife in the video several times before so it looked a lot easier than it was.  

Here are the steps to the 3-Step Method:  

1. After the shaping stage, the knife should slice newsprint, and after apexing it should push cut.  With a knife that you are familiar with or if you can feel the feedback from the stone, this isn't that difficult as the edge feels a certain way on the stone right before it forms a burr.  I usually am not big on counting passes, but if I haven't sharpened a knife before or I can't feel the feedback on the stone for some reason, I will do sets of 5 or 10 passes per side until the edge slices newsprint (this is right after the shaping stage were the edge is no longer reflecting light).  

2. Then I will double the angle and set the apex, usually 5-10 alternating edge leading passes per side, then lower the angle to the original angle and do 1-5 passes alternating passes per side, checking  for sharpness.  

3. If the edge is not push cutting newsprint/phonebook paper by then, I check to see if there is a burr.  If no burr, I will do a few more edge leading alternating passes, again checking the sharpness.  If there is a burr, I repeat step 2, then check sharpness.

I have noticed that one of the issues that is causing problems, and the one I had, is going straight for no reflection of light to micro-beveling, and either not doing enough passes or overginding and forming a burr.  When I asked Cliff how to avoid overgrinding and forming a burr(that is the point of this technique, right?), he told me don't worry about forming a burr, just cut it off with the micro-bevel.  Another issue is that some try Plateau Sharpening first before they get the 3-Step method down, which is using one stone for shaping, doing alternating passes until the edge shaves while stopping before a burr is formed, and then apexing the edge with a micro-bevel.  This is a lot more tricky of a technique, as you need to double or triple the number of micro-bevel passes, and it doesn't give you the opportunity to do a lot of grit progressions, unlike the 3 Step Method, where you can insert as many stones as you like to get a mirror polish.

(10-02-2018, 08:31 PM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 04:28 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 01:27 PM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 12:11 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 10:40 AM)SteveG Wrote: In my interpretation of what Cliff is saying, *optimal* sharpening stops the moment the edge is apexed, thus not allowing for burr formation.  I can't argue whether this is true or not, though I can say that I've tried it - unsuccessfully.  Cliff's argument for edge-leading vs edge-trailing is that edge-leading moves damaged metal away from the apex, instead of into it.  His arguments seem to me to be more from the standpoint of edge-retention than achievable sharpness, and from optimal rather than practical sharpening, though his methods seem to work for him - wished they worked like that for me.

SteveG,
That is an excellent explanation.  Could you tell me how Cliff's technique didn't work for you?  This is what I am trying to figure out.  Thank you.

The shaping step seems to be ok for me, so I get to the point where there's no visible light reflected from the edge, and I'm going to apply one or two high-angle passes to micro-bevel and form the apex.  First pass, still dull.  Next pass, still dull.  Keeps on going "still dull" until I can feel a burr - IOW, I'm either not going far enough, or too far, at which point I'm back to the strop just as I would have been if I did my more normal burr-based sharpening, but now that I have a microbevel the stropping is a little harder to get right.

Keep in mind that I don't have much experience at freehand sharpening, and it's likely my high-angle passes are too inconsistent to use this method well, so you'll probably have better results than I get.  Also note that I didn't/don't include back-bevelling (the step where, after adding the microbevel, you resharpen at the original angle to remove the microbevel) in the progression - I might be missing the point, but don't see that it adds any value and just gives me more opportunity to ruin the edge.

So, with all of that said, I can get to slicing phone book paper with the grain, and sometimes across the grain, with this method, but not push-cutting across the grain, which is kinda my threshold for sharp.

SteveG,
I had the same issue when first trying to use it.  I was able to communicate with Cliff and he walked me through the last part.  What I did after that was just take one knife and sharpened it for a week until I got the technique down.  In Cliff's video and forum post, he didn't explain that he had sharpened the knife in the video several times before so it looked a lot easier than it was.  

Here are the steps to the 3-Step Method:  

1. After the shaping stage, the knife should slice newsprint, and after apexing it should push cut.  With a knife that you are familiar with or if you can feel the feedback from the stone, this isn't that difficult as the edge feels a certain way on the stone right before it forms a burr.  I usually am not big on counting passes, but if I haven't sharpened a knife before or I can't feel the feedback on the stone for some reason, I will do sets of 5 or 10 passes per side until the edge slices newsprint (this is right after the shaping stage were the edge is no longer reflecting light).  

2. Then I will double the angle and set the apex, usually 5-10 alternating edge leading passes per side, then lower the angle to the original angle and do 1-5 passes alternating passes per side, checking  for sharpness.  

3. If the edge is not push cutting newsprint/phonebook paper by then, I check to see if there is a burr.  If no burr, I will do a few more edge leading alternating passes, again checking the sharpness.  If there is a burr, I repeat step 2, then check sharpness.

I have noticed that one of the issues that is causing problems, and the one I had, is going straight for no reflection of light to micro-beveling, and either not doing enough passes or overginding and forming a burr.  When I asked Cliff how to avoid overgrinding and forming a burr(that is the point of this technique, right?), he told me don't worry about forming a burr, just cut it off with the micro-bevel.  Another issue is that some try Plateau Sharpening first before they get the 3-Step method down, which is using one stone for shaping, doing alternating passes until the edge shaves while stopping before a burr is formed, and then apexing the edge with a micro-bevel.  This is a lot more tricky of a technique, as you need to double or triple the number of micro-bevel passes, and it doesn't give you the opportunity to do a lot of grit progressions, unlike the 3 Step Method, where you can insert as many stones as you like to get a mirror polish.

jasonstone,

  Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed explanation, I will incorporate that into my practice sessions.  I think your advice, as with most of the sound advice I hear, is to practice, and with practice will come success.  I've heard Cliff claim that anyone can learn this method in a very short time (don't remember for sure, but I think it was denominated in minutes); I've also read where someone mastered it in a year.  For you it was a week.  For me, it's not been dedicated practice, but I did buy a cheap paring knife to practice with, and once every week or so I'll give it a spin, so maybe in six months or a year I'll be wondering why it was so hard to figure out. 

  So, one question: are you applying the microbevel with the same stone you shaped with?  Actually, a second question: are you also back-bevelling with the same stone.  It sounds like you are; I've done it both with the same and with a finer stone (which is what I think you're referring to as Plateau Sharpening) - which points out one of my significant flaws in practicing (i.e., that I usually try something different each time I practice, which maybe means I shouldn't be calling it "practice").

  Thanks again for the tips, I'll be playing with those.

  Steve

(10-03-2018, 09:11 AM)Jan Wrote: I enjoy the fruitful discussion in this thread. Every post may be the missing stone in the mosaic how to proceed efficiently when deburring an edge.
 
It's a temptation to find universal rule how to sharpen without a burr. In my understanding the burr formation process is not fully understood yet. It depends among others on physical properties of sharpened blade. The most important property is the ductility/brittleness of the blade. Ductile materials form large positive burrs while brittle materials form smaller negative burrs by break out mechanism.  
 
Nevertheless it is surely worth to look for a simple approach how to minimise the burr which is to some degree unavoidable phenomenon of sharpening.
 
Jan

(10-03-2018, 11:02 AM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 08:31 PM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 04:28 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 01:27 PM)SteveG Wrote:

(10-02-2018, 12:11 PM)jasonstone20 Wrote: SteveG,
That is an excellent explanation.  Could you tell me how Cliff's technique didn't work for you?  This is what I am trying to figure out.  Thank you.

The shaping step seems to be ok for me, so I get to the point where there's no visible light reflected from the edge, and I'm going to apply one or two high-angle passes to micro-bevel and form the apex.  First pass, still dull.  Next pass, still dull.  Keeps on going "still dull" until I can feel a burr - IOW, I'm either not going far enough, or too far, at which point I'm back to the strop just as I would have been if I did my more normal burr-based sharpening, but now that I have a microbevel the stropping is a little harder to get right.

Keep in mind that I don't have much experience at freehand sharpening, and it's likely my high-angle passes are too inconsistent to use this method well, so you'll probably have better results than I get.  Also note that I didn't/don't include back-bevelling (the step where, after adding the microbevel, you resharpen at the original angle to remove the microbevel) in the progression - I might be missing the point, but don't see that it adds any value and just gives me more opportunity to ruin the edge.

So, with all of that said, I can get to slicing phone book paper with the grain, and sometimes across the grain, with this method, but not push-cutting across the grain, which is kinda my threshold for sharp.

SteveG,
I had the same issue when first trying to use it.  I was able to communicate with Cliff and he walked me through the last part.  What I did after that was just take one knife and sharpened it for a week until I got the technique down.  In Cliff's video and forum post, he didn't explain that he had sharpened the knife in the video several times before so it looked a lot easier than it was.  

Here are the steps to the 3-Step Method:  

1. After the shaping stage, the knife should slice newsprint, and after apexing it should push cut.  With a knife that you are familiar with or if you can feel the feedback from the stone, this isn't that difficult as the edge feels a certain way on the stone right before it forms a burr.  I usually am not big on counting passes, but if I haven't sharpened a knife before or I can't feel the feedback on the stone for some reason, I will do sets of 5 or 10 passes per side until the edge slices newsprint (this is right after the shaping stage were the edge is no longer reflecting light).  

2. Then I will double the angle and set the apex, usually 5-10 alternating edge leading passes per side, then lower the angle to the original angle and do 1-5 passes alternating passes per side, checking  for sharpness.  

3. If the edge is not push cutting newsprint/phonebook paper by then, I check to see if there is a burr.  If no burr, I will do a few more edge leading alternating passes, again checking the sharpness.  If there is a burr, I repeat step 2, then check sharpness.

I have noticed that one of the issues that is causing problems, and the one I had, is going straight for no reflection of light to micro-beveling, and either not doing enough passes or overginding and forming a burr.  When I asked Cliff how to avoid overgrinding and forming a burr(that is the point of this technique, right?), he told me don't worry about forming a burr, just cut it off with the micro-bevel.  Another issue is that some try Plateau Sharpening first before they get the 3-Step method down, which is using one stone for shaping, doing alternating passes until the edge shaves while stopping before a burr is formed, and then apexing the edge with a micro-bevel.  This is a lot more tricky of a technique, as you need to double or triple the number of micro-bevel passes, and it doesn't give you the opportunity to do a lot of grit progressions, unlike the 3 Step Method, where you can insert as many stones as you like to get a mirror polish.

jasonstone,

  Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed explanation, I will incorporate that into my practice sessions.  I think your advice, as with most of the sound advice I hear, is to practice, and with practice will come success.  I've heard Cliff claim that anyone can learn this method in a very short time (don't remember for sure, but I think it was denominated in minutes); I've also read where someone mastered it in a year.  For you it was a week.  For me, it's not been dedicated practice, but I did buy a cheap paring knife to practice with, and once every week or so I'll give it a spin, so maybe in six months or a year I'll be wondering why it was so hard to figure out. 

  So, one question: are you applying the microbevel with the same stone you shaped with?  Actually, a second question: are you also back-bevelling with the same stone.  It sounds like you are; I've done it both with the same and with a finer stone (which is what I think you're referring to as Plateau Sharpening) - which points out one of my significant flaws in practicing (i.e., that I usually try something different each time I practice, which maybe means I shouldn't be calling it "practice").

  Thanks again for the tips, I'll be playing with those.

  Steve

SteveG,
I think Cliff was talking about people learning when taught in person.  Once you figure it out, it is really simple, just a little nuanced.  I don't always use the burr-free technique, but I have incorporated a few of it's techniques into my sharpening, and it is especially useful for when I am having difficulties.  I just find it doesn't take as much of my energy and concentration to just sharpen to a burr and remove it on the strop.  

As far as the micro-bevel, you want to apply it with the stone that has the desired apex finish.  Same with the back-beveling. For example, using DMT diamond hones, you shape on the C, refine the scratch pattern (just sharpening on the edge bevel, alternating edge leading passes),  with the F, and refine the scratch pattern with the EF, then micro-bevel and back-bevel with the EF.