+- The BESS Exchange is sponsored by Edge On Up (http://bessex.com/forum)
+-- Forum: BESS Forums (http://bessex.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Burr Removal Methods, Testing and Results (http://bessex.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Thread: Wire Edge Prevention (/showthread.php?tid=372)
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - Ken S - 09-26-2018
I'm the odd duck on bessex. The majority of the members are knife sharpeners. I sharpen knives, too, however, my true sharpening passion is working with chisels. Even when sharpening knives, subconsciously I am translating my thoughts into chiselese. The two languages have much in common.
I have the highest praise for my fellow bessexers who are intensely studying the effects of burrs. We are up against a very powerful lobby, the marketing community who incessantly promote simplicity over sharpness. I see nothing wrong with establishing a certain level of sharpness which is compatible with being able to sharpen a hundred knives on a Saturday morning. Nor do I see anything wrong with the level of sharpness obtained with the myriad of kitchen gadgets used by people with essentially no sharpening experience at very low cost. I can certainly understand the appeal of a nicely packaged ten dollar grocery store knife for a person of modest means.. All of these areas fulfill a need. My problem with them is that all too often they become the norm instead of just expedients.
The ally of mass marketing is, for lack of a more polite term, laziness. With chisels, the use of intermediate grit stones is called "refining the scratch pattern". As with sharpening stones, I have noticed a resistance among Tormek users to use the stone grader to add the middle step 1000 grit before going to the leather honing wheel. With waterstones, I have observed a tendency to omit the middle 4000 grit between the 1000 and 8000 grits.
Reading through this topic, I get the impression that judicious use of the middle grit(s) not only refines the scratches; it is our best weapon in getting rid of the root burr. In my sharpening, I really have no need of sub 50 sharpness, however, creating more durable edges definitely perks up my interest.
I will end this reply as I began it. To all of you who are pioneering the quest for better sharpness, I am most grateful. You are like the auto racing or space program teams. Your work may start on race tracks or bessex, however, like those other technologies, your work will raise the general level of sharpness and edge durability for everyone.
Keep up the good work.
Ken
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - Jan - 09-26-2018
Mr. KG, the small sharpness improvement caused by the copper-roller is a riddle for me. Your idea that the tiny groove in the roller surface may cause this improvement is very interesting.
I would be interested to know if a lead roller will behave similarly. Lead is less hard than copper and so the depth of the groove should be greater and micro-deburr grater part of the apex. This, in my thinking, may cause farther improvement of the BESS score.
Jan
P.S.: On this occasion, I have remembered recommendation for scissors blade deburring form Tormek handbook. See the attached figure.
[attachment=751]
RE: Wire Edge removal - grepper - 09-27-2018
(09-25-2018, 11:33 PM)Mr. SteveG queried, Wrote: How do you orient the microscope; i.e., do you change the angle on that as well, or keep it fixed (and if fixed, then above the edge or to one side)?
I clamp the handle of the knife in a vice and orient the blade almost flat with the apex slightly tilted up by maybe a couple of degrees. Then focus the scope and don't touch the knife after that.
If you move the flashlight around in a 360° circle around the blade, from high to low, close to farther away it becomes obvious that lighting is extremely important. Try putting a diffuser over the light so that the light causes less direct reflection. Even holding a tissue over the lens will work. Try different combinations of top light from the microscope and side light from the flashlight. Try lighting directly opposing the apex of the blade to highlight the burr or flat with the blade from spine to edge to reflect the burr if it s bent to one side. Experimentation is the key to understanding how lighting effects the image.
Different steels and grinds require different lighting approaches. I sweat the lighting every time I take an image. It's always sort of pain in the butt with cheap USB scopes and takes some time with each different knife and image.
RE: Wire Edge removal - SteveG - 09-27-2018
(09-27-2018, 08:40 PM)grepper Wrote:(09-25-2018, 11:33 PM)Mr. SteveG queried, Wrote: How do you orient the microscope; i.e., do you change the angle on that as well, or keep it fixed (and if fixed, then above the edge or to one side)?
I clamp the handle of the knife in a vice and orient the blade almost flat with the apex slightly tilted up by maybe a couple of degrees. Then focus the scope and don't touch the knife after that.
If you move the flashlight around in a 360° circle around the blade, from high to low, close to farther away it becomes obvious that lighting is extremely important. Try putting a diffuser over the light so that the light causes less direct reflection. Even holding a tissue over the lens will work. Try different combinations of top light from the microscope and side light from the flashlight. Try lighting directly opposing the apex of the blade to highlight the burr or flat with the blade from spine to edge to reflect the burr if it s bent to one side. Experimentation is the key to understanding how lighting effects the image.
Different steels and grinds require different lighting approaches. I sweat the lighting every time I take an image. It's always sort of pain in the butt with cheap USB scopes and takes some time with each different knife and image.
Thanks for the tips, I’ll try experimenting with that. I’ve always hand-held the microscope, but your approach makes sense; the scope lighting isn’t ideal.
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - Bud - 10-06-2018
I tried it last night. It is amazing how lighting makes things pop out. I think now that some of these things I thought were there are not and things I couldn't see before are. The only problem I have now is deciding what is and what is not. It seems to me that about every time I have things figured out I don't.
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - KnifeGrinders - 10-06-2018
(10-06-2018, 05:17 PM)Bud Wrote: ...The only problem I have now is deciding what is and what is not. It seems to me that about every time I have things figured out I don't.
hahaha LoLLLllll
This is exactly the problem I have with microscopes - too often I can not get a visual of the burr that I can palpate and even see naked-eye by the light it scatters.
How can I trust a microscope telling me the burr is not there when I cannot make it show me the burr I know is there.
Because of that, in my sharpening I use the microscope chiefly for documenting something if I have time to sweat over the lighting to get a decent image, but not as a diagnostic tool.
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - EOU - 10-08-2018
Yes we understand the frustration Bud and KG's point is well taken. That being the case, Grepper's lighting instructions are very valuable. We've looked at many an edge and pronounced it slick as a whistle only to subsequently follow Grepper's lighting advice and then see our egos shrink in disappointment. Initially, we asked the same question as you did Bud "what's real and what's not?". First of all, Grepper teaches that lighting is unlikely to make something appear that isn't there. An improperly lit edge can help to hide things that are there though. If you take into consideration the likely geometry (shape) of the burr (and if you're looking at the correct side of the edge) it helps in confirming that. If something is protruding from the edge it will usually cast a shadow under the correct lighting conditions. Imagine that you were looking at the top of a round fence post, from some distance and straight down, the fence post might appear as only a small, dark, circle etched into the surrounding terrain. If the light that illuminates the fence post is shifted to the side, the shadow cast by the fence post will become apparent. When that shadow is cast it gives the image a more three-dimensional appearance and things become apparent that were not visible before. Just our 2% of a dollar commentary on this subject ladies and gentlemen.
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - Bud - 10-08-2018
I don't feel as dumb now as I did last night so thanks for the hand holding EOU and Mr. Knifegrinders! I'll just keep moving my light around and if I see little green men with four arms and three legs I think I'll just keep my mouth shut and switch brands of whiskey.
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - KnifeGrinders - 10-13-2018
In continuation of this discussion, our latest paper on deburring:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Knife_Deburring.pdf
I've prepared it for the Australian Knife Magazine, still have 1 month before submission, and would appreciate if you could point to paragraphs difficult to comprehend or poorly worded.
RE: Wire Edge Prevention - Ken S - 10-29-2018
KG,
Very well done article. I saved it in ibooks and printed it, too. Much food for thought. Thanks.
Ken